Built in safety "flaws"

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is this throw illegal in Judo?

 

[wab25]

the TMA crowd tends to separate things into boxes like "sparring", "forms", and "self-defense".

Those boxes are not as separate as people tend to think. Those boxes do have a relationship with each other. A very simple analogy would be that they form some sort of Venn Diagram. I think I remember you saying that you had some experience in computer programming.... so a better analogy would be an Object Oriented Hierarchy.

The counter argument is that if you have a safe way of throwing (X) and a "I want to hurt you" way of throwing (Y), and you mainly train X, then X is probably what's going to come out in a fight.

It kind of depends on how different your X throw and your Y throw are. If your safe practice throw is o'soto gari and your damaging throw is o'goshi... then you would be correct.

My safe throw is o'soto gari.... done by grabbing uke's left lapel with my right hand, off balancing him to the rear and reaping his leg out with mine.... the hand on the lapel stays on the lapel, to initiate and transition into the mount. All of this is done with a training or competing intent.

My damaging throw is o'soto gari.... done by crushing, grabbing the throat (instead of the lapel) with my right hand, off balancing him to the rear and reaping his leg out... my hand stays on his throat, with the intent to drive his head into the ground as he lands. The hand change is about 6 inches. It is the intent change that creates the damaging effect. Sure, I could grab for a lapel anyway, since that is how I train.... but if I have the intent to damage, I will still be driving the head into the ground as he lands, with the combined mass of both people....

I think thats kind of what the OP is looking for... what are the small changes to make, along with the change of intent, that makes the same technique safe to practice with one intent and damaging with the other intent. While those details are nice to know and to practice... the biggest differentiator is the intent.

Similarly, if I wanted to hurt someone, I wouldn't slowly apply pressure to a choke or slowly apply leverage to an armbar. I'd crank the crap out of it.

Exactly! Doing the same technique with a training / competitive intent is fairly safe to do. Doing the same technique with a damaging intent, can be permanent. There may be some differences you can learn, to get the most out of the cranking when trying to damage.... but the damage is mainly done through the change in your intent.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The counter argument is that if you have a safe way of throwing (X) and a "I want to hurt you" way of throwing (Y), and you mainly train X, then X is probably what's going to come out in a fight.

I think that depends on the individual and where they're at, training wise. I see three distinct stages in the response to an attack:
1 - What do I do???? Because you don't really have a clue.
2 - I've got this! You've trained enough that you respond automatically. At this stage, your statement above is probably correct.
3 - What do I do? Because you're choosing between several different options.

An example that you, personally, should be very familiar with.
In Koryo, you learn an arc hand strike to the throat. It can be done two different ways.
1 - Angled slightly upwards, catching the chin, it can be used to unbalance an opponent or, in combination with footwork, a take down.
2 - Straight in, aimed at the hyoid bone, it is a highly lethal strike. The hyoid is tiny and fragile, and fractures with minimal impact. I'd have to look up the stats, but off the top of my head it's in the neighborhood of 70%.

 

[drop bear]

The account name is perfect for this thread!

One thing I've noticed that's very different from the "MMA" and "TMA" crowd is that the MMA crowd tends to focus on what works in training and sanctioned fight, where the TMA crowd tends to separate things into boxes like "sparring", "forms", and "self-defense".

Pushing the boundaries of what is safe in a methodical manner can be enlightening. An example is from BJJ, where you might take a trusted training partner and have them start with a submission 90% locked in, so that you can work on your defense against it. In normal rolls, I tap as soon as my arm is isolated. I have stayed very healthy as a result of this. But I also don't have a lot of defense against deeply set submissions. Starting at 90% with the goal to work out of it helps with that. Similarly, if I wanted to hurt someone, I wouldn't slowly apply pressure to a choke or slowly apply leverage to an armbar. I'd crank the crap out of it.

The counter argument is that if you have a safe way of throwing (X) and a "I want to hurt you" way of throwing (Y), and you mainly train X, then X is probably what's going to come out in a fight.

You will have issues with Y as well. Because you won't get realistic feedback in training.

 

[Buka]

All training should be designed with safety measures in place for the wellbeing of the participants. I’m trying to think of any place I’ve been to that wasn’t that way.

This thread confuses me. Of course a lot of things confuse me.

 

[mograph]

This thread confuses me. Of course a lot of things confuse me.

(Nods sagely.)

 

[Badhabits]

Everyone's made some good points here. I really enjoy learning the little details that make differences in how things work. It's a lot of fun to play around with. Everyone has different ways of doing things 😀
Perform a throw one way, you get a bodyslam. Move your foot over a little to pin the other person's foot, change the angle of the drop and get a different result with the same throw. Just really neat stuff. I trained under a fellow awhile back that knew how to do some just really nasty things with throws. Stuff that would injure you before you hit ground. Real eye opener there. Well it looks pretty unanimous that not tensing on impact is a bad idea for striking. I can't promise I'll completely abandon the concept, but everyone's points are well taken here👍 Thought maybe there were people out there that didn't utilize tension on impact so much.
Kung F Wangs third video down- I wonder how much training it took to get that dog not to jump in on that dummy, looks like it really wants to have a go!
I've spent most of my life in a small town where someone opens a dojo, it closes down after a couple of years and then someone else does the same and so forth and on. I'm sure everyone knows how you get exposure to different ways and ideas but you never get to spend enough time at one thing to really learn the system well. And they don't always jive together. So I ask questions where I can. Again thanks everyone for chiming in!

 

[Badhabits]

Buka I'm talking about the safety measures not being pointed out. So if you really needed to do something you don't actually know that you're applying a technique with safety measures. Lol sorry the threads confusing, I confuse myself a lot. My wife says I confuse her a lot too😁

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This thread confuses me. Of course a lot of things confuse me.

The praying mantis system has "8 striking areas" and "8 non-striking areas". The funny thing is the teacher will teach

- all beginner students to "only strike the 8 striking areas and don't strike the non-striking area. (sport approach)"
- all advance students to "only strike the 8 non-striking areas and don't strike the striking area. (combat approach)"

8 striking areas:

1. eyebrows and eyes,
2. the middle between lips and nose,
3. cheek and ear,
4. back bone,
5. ribs and intestines,
6. above groin area,
7. knee joint and shin bone,
8. broken bones,

and 8 non-striking area:

1. the temple area,
2. middle of the throat,
3. the center of the chest,
4. below the floating ribs,
5. groin area,
6. two kidneys area,
7. tail bone,
8. two ears,

一打眉头双眼；不打太阳为首，二打唇上人中；不打正中咽喉，
三打穿腮耳门；不打中心两壁，四打背后骨缝；不打两肋太极，
五打肋内肺腑；不打海底撩阴，六打撩阴高骨；不打两肾对心，
七打鹤膝虎骨；不打尾闾风府，八打破骨千金；不打两耳扇风。

 

[Badhabits]

Kung Fu Wang, is it taught that way in Praying Mantis for ethical reasons? Or is it more so the inexperienced don't injure each other? Both?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kung Fu Wang, is it taught that way in Praying Mantis for ethical reasons? Or is it more so the inexperienced don't injure each other? Both?

- In training, you want to protect your training partner.
- In fighting, you want to hurt/kill your enemy.

 

[Badhabits]

Wab25 you're spot on, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'd think most martial artists would be interested in the types of variations you're describing. I get it not everyone wants to put those types of things out there and I respect that. But as a martial artist it's interesting worthwhile stuff to learn.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No matter how one may want to color code MA, some MA trainings are trying to hurt/kill your opponent.

post image online

 

[Badhabits]

Dirty dog the arc hand is a good example. I was taught a hand formation for training, the safe version, and a different formation for intentionally damaging the bone there.
The different hand formations are certainly interesting. A ridgehand can surely do some damage, but the same general strike with the thumb knuckle instead of the meaty part below the index finger could potentially have more effect.
So is the ridgehand a sort of "safety" version of the strike? Or is there another good reason to go with the basic ridgehand as opposed to the other. Same general motion just a different hand formation

 

[Buka]

- In training, you want to protect your training partner.
- In fighting, you want to hurt/kill your enemy.

And in police work you usually want to control a person without injuring them. At least you should.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And in police work you usually want to control a person without injuring them. At least you should.

In Taiwan, police are not allowed to use kick/punch. Only body throw and joint lock are allowed.

 

[skribs]

1 - Angled slightly upwards, catching the chin, it can be used to unbalance an opponent or, in combination with footwork, a take down.
2 - Straight in, aimed at the hyoid bone, it is a highly lethal strike. The hyoid is tiny and fragile, and fractures with minimal impact. I'd have to look up the stats, but off the top of my head it's in the neighborhood of 70%.

I've only ever learned it as a straight throat strike.

 

[skribs]

And in police work you usually want to control a person without injuring them. At least you should.

Usually?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hitting with a clenched fist vs loose fist with good bone alignment is another one I've been playing with on the makiwara.

I'm a clenched fist person. The type of fist you make will determine how your bones align. I can hit a heavy bag with an open fist with alot of space in my palm but I would never do that in application or in training where I need to hit the bag with significant force.

If a person is using clinched fist then, the key is how to squeeze the fist. If you squeeze too tight then you'll cause the back of the fist to round and the bones to align in a way that's problematic to striking with the fist.

The fist still needs to be tight. It just has to be tight in the right places. Some people squeeze so tight in the wrong places that there knuckles get that slanted look.

Then a guy told me the firming of the fist on impact is a "safety flaw" to protect your own wrist if your structure is less than great.

I have never heard this. I did what you claim while sparring with my brother. He drove his elbow into my loose fist. It was just a quick tap but too 6 months to heal and instantly ended sparring for that day. I would have had less damage with a proper fist.

The only moving target I've struck with the loose hand formation is a heavy bag that's swinging around. Hitting the hard part is fine, but the soft part that eats your hand is not so easy.

Same here. I hit the hard part of the heavy bad so my fist doesn't sink into the bag like it does on the soft part.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is this throw illegal in Judo?

View attachment 30757

I eould hate to be caught with that from our of the blue. That's not the type of surprises that I like. Lol