Non martial artists teaching children to punch and karate 'chop'

jks9199

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I'm not adding the qualifier. I'm going from what he wrote about kids being able to do things properly without input from adults, and adults basically messing things up.

At that age, I was probably swinging baseball bats and tennis rackets. My dad gave me some coaching on both, so I'd be able to do them at least somewhat correctly. That's about all that's needed when a kid is just playing around with them like that. If they're going to do something for 30-60 minutes straight, and the point is to introduce them to an activity, they should be given some marginally competent input. That is for both safety reasons (if there's any safety concern, and I think there is some reason behind that concern with repetitive punching for that long) and so they are actually being introduced to the activity, and not something vaguely related to it (see my earlier post about gymnastics).
I agree.

To me, the best case here is to have an instructor from a local martial arts program teach the class. Next best, give the leaders some actual hands on training and instruction to coach them safely. Third best, a detailed lesson plan, probably including videos if possible, to show the leaders how to teach the material.

But what this seems to be is "here are a couple coaching cards and activities to do to earn the badge." Insufficient, and too much wiggle room.
 

Steve

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Awesome! And if you were lucky enough to find a sturdy enough y-shape tree branch you could make a serviceable catapult with rubber band propulsion.. Tho I could never get it to work too good.. maybe if I had had proper adult tuition or some thing....
We made slingshots that worked, but I'm afraid our bows never did much.
 

Steve

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I'm not adding the qualifier. I'm going from what he wrote about kids being able to do things properly without input from adults, and adults basically messing things up.

At that age, I was probably swinging baseball bats and tennis rackets. My dad gave me some coaching on both, so I'd be able to do them at least somewhat correctly. That's about all that's needed when a kid is just playing around with them like that. If they're going to do something for 30-60 minutes straight, and the point is to introduce them to an activity, they should be given some marginally competent input. That is for both safety reasons (if there's any safety concern, and I think there is some reason behind that concern with repetitive punching for that long) and so they are actually being introduced to the activity, and not something vaguely related to it (see my earlier post about gymnastics).
Okay. I think kids need both. This isn't a binary thing. They I'm not saying that what you describe is bad or wrong or whatever. I'm saying it's just fine, AND kids don't always need proper adult supervision telling them how to do things. Give a kid a ball or a stick and they'll figure out a way to play with it, which is also very healthy.

And once again, lest the real point be lost. The op is making a little more of this than necessary. As usual, there's an amusing element of hand wringing which I think is indicative of the helicopter parenting we see a lot nowadays. Kids aren't made of glass. I get the idea, and even agree that a karate instructor would be a better choice to introduce karate to kids. And I also view this activity as described in the op as being harmless and probably good fun for the kids.

this thread is a lot of conflict for no reason, as people needlessly begin choosing sides.
 

Steve

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I agree.

To me, the best case here is to have an instructor from a local martial arts program teach the class. Next best, give the leaders some actual hands on training and instruction to coach them safely. Third best, a detailed lesson plan, probably including videos if possible, to show the leaders how to teach the material.

But what this seems to be is "here are a couple coaching cards and activities to do to earn the badge." Insufficient, and too much wiggle room.
i don't disagree with the first paragraph, I think your conclusion is a little extreme. It's only insufficient if you believe the kids will actually learn some karate. In an hour, regardless of how qualified the instructor is, the best you'll get with the 5 -7 year olds, is a lot of fun. And an experienced guide, even with no karate experience, will be more than capable of managing that safely.
 

jobo

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Nope. Can't you read. It says 'discover what karate is then play a game'. I have heard from other leaders who have already done the activity that what they are doing is karate 'lessons' ie lining up bowing and doing air punching and 'chops'. Now you can dispute that but you'd be a fool to because I have the facts not you. Do not try to tell me what other Guiding leaders are doing .



You missed the point again didn't you. I am saying you are arguing for the sake of it.
well there not doing what is on the card are they, but they,still aren't doing karate, they are lining up, bowing and punching balloons
 

jks9199

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his point was indeed that a kid couldn't learn to use a bat correctly with out adult instruction
You seem to read a lot in absolutes, rather than recognizing that there can be different levels or degrees of learning. Certainly a kid can pick up a bat or racket and swing it around. They can imitate what they've seen, too... but to really get it "right", to learn the best or most efficient and effective ways -- they'll need proper coaching and instruction. As I've said -- I think that the program as Tez described it is inadequate because it doesn't seem to cover enough for an inexperienced leader to prevent problems, and leaves too much room for them to improvise based on what they've seen in movies or TV. I offered several ways to address those problems, up to and including bringing a local karate teacher in as a "guest leader."
 

jobo

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You seem to read a lot in absolutes, rather than recognizing that there can be different levels or degrees of learning. Certainly a kid can pick up a bat or racket and swing it around. They can imitate what they've seen, too... but to really get it "right", to learn the best or most efficient and effective ways -- they'll need proper coaching and instruction. As I've said -- I think that the program as Tez described it is inadequate because it doesn't seem to cover enough for an inexperienced leader to prevent problems, and leaves too much room for them to improvise based on what they've seen in movies or TV. I offered several ways to address those problems, up to and including bringing a local karate teacher in as a "guest leader."
he asked me if a kid could learn to use a bat correctly with out adult supervision, when I said yes, h told me was wrong.
 

Andrew Green

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Is it just me who isn't happy about people who have no idea about martial arts teaching a class on 'karate' thinking they know what it is and how to do it?

I think martial artists in general take themselves way to seriously, and it hurts our growth as a industry.

Kids are going to play at "martial arts" whether you tell them too or not. Giving them some basic guidelines, a structure and a name to it isn't going to hurt them. It might even get them thinking martial arts is a fun thing they might want to try.

But no one is telling kids they shouldn't attempt dance without a qualified coach, or swing a baseball bat without a certified professional around. Kids don't need fully certified instructors to learn to ride a bike or a skateboard. They will learn to climb without a experienced climber present.

A major mainstream kids organization introducing the idea of martial arts as a fun and healthy activity is a good thing. We need to build interest not restrict it.
 

jobo

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I think martial artists in general take themselves way to seriously, and it hurts our growth as a industry.

Kids are going to play at "martial arts" whether you tell them too or not. Giving them some basic guidelines, a structure and a name to it isn't going to hurt them. It might even get them thinking martial arts is a fun thing they might want to try.

But no one is telling kids they shouldn't attempt dance without a qualified coach, or swing a baseball bat without a certified professional around. Kids don't need fully certified instructors to learn to ride a bike or a skateboard. They will learn to climb without a experienced climber present.

A major mainstream kids organization introducing the idea of martial arts as a fun and healthy activity is a good thing. We need to build interest not restrict it.
I be ready made those very points and the opinion expressed was they do indeed need a qualified coach for swinging a bat about
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think martial artists in general take themselves way to seriously, and it hurts our growth as a industry.

Kids are going to play at "martial arts" whether you tell them too or not. Giving them some basic guidelines, a structure and a name to it isn't going to hurt them. It might even get them thinking martial arts is a fun thing they might want to try.

But no one is telling kids they shouldn't attempt dance without a qualified coach, or swing a baseball bat without a certified professional around. Kids don't need fully certified instructors to learn to ride a bike or a skateboard. They will learn to climb without a experienced climber present.

A major mainstream kids organization introducing the idea of martial arts as a fun and healthy activity is a good thing. We need to build interest not restrict it.
And the OP isn't suggesting kids shouldn't play MA without supervision. She's suggesting that "introducing them to Karate" without any knowledge of the art is at best inaccurate, and has some potential to be done poorly enough to cause (probably short-term) harm.

Again, to me, this would be like introducing "gymnastics" with no real understanding of the discipline, perhaps having them bounce around a bit. It's fun, and could be done safely, but it's not an intro to gymnastics. And if it's done poorly, it could set up some unnecessary injuries.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I be ready made those very points and the opinion expressed was they do indeed need a qualified coach for swinging a bat about
Actually, those aren't the points you made, at all. If they were what you intended, you missed - as you missed the point in the reply (which you once again state inaccurately here).
 

Gerry Seymour

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Okay. I think kids need both. This isn't a binary thing. They I'm not saying that what you describe is bad or wrong or whatever. I'm saying it's just fine, AND kids don't always need proper adult supervision telling them how to do things. Give a kid a ball or a stick and they'll figure out a way to play with it, which is also very healthy.

And once again, lest the real point be lost. The op is making a little more of this than necessary. As usual, there's an amusing element of hand wringing which I think is indicative of the helicopter parenting we see a lot nowadays. Kids aren't made of glass. I get the idea, and even agree that a karate instructor would be a better choice to introduce karate to kids. And I also view this activity as described in the op as being harmless and probably good fun for the kids.

this thread is a lot of conflict for no reason, as people needlessly begin choosing sides.
I agree with what you're saying. What I'm arguing is that giving them improper (un-knowledgeable) guidance and calling it an introduction is not a good approach. I wouldn't give a kid a bat and ball and call that an intro to baseball, nor would I try to draw an idea of what baseball players do by watching some movies (it sounds like a very similar thing is happening with these leaders). I'd just give them the tools and let them have fun, or make up a game for them. But if the goal is to introduce them to baseball, there should probably be something of baseball involved.

There's a small element of risk if this is done improperly. It may be overstated - I'm not an expert on that, so I'll accept that is a possibility. That risk can be mitigated pretty easily, though, by having some guidelines on the full activity, and maybe a short training video for the leaders. Otherwise, maybe don't call it an intro to Karate, and just do the fun games without the air-punching.
 

Gerry Seymour

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his point was indeed that a kid couldn't learn to use a bat correctly with out adult instruction
You're leaving out two key parts of your incorrect statement. First, the age group (specified in the initial post). Second, that you were the one who claimed kids of that age (I can only assume you're referring to the same age group, since you didn't specify otherwise) can, in fact, learn such skills properly without any help.

Most kids do have help in learning those skills. They come from parents who know how to do them (like my dad did), other kids who are better at them (my cousins were always better at baseball than me), and maybe even coaches, if they ever play in a league. Very rare is the child who learns to swing a baseball bat properly with no input from someone else.
 

Gerry Seymour

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he asked me if a kid could learn to use a bat correctly with out adult supervision, when I said yes, h told me was wrong.
Incorrect, again. I said you're hanging out with very different 5-7 year olds than I ever have.
 
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I think martial artists in general take themselves way to seriously, and it hurts our growth as a industry.

Industry? It may be to you but to the people I know and train with it's not an industry at all.

Kids are going to play at "martial arts" whether you tell them too or not. Giving them some basic guidelines, a structure and a name to it isn't going to hurt them. It might even get them thinking martial arts is a fun thing they might want to try.

Actually I know from experience that young girls don't tend to play at 'martial arts', if they do they tend to be stopped by adults who tell them it's not feminine or 'ladylike'. Giving them a basic structure is exactly what I was thinking about, not having them do 'karate' by people who do nothing about martial arts. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying have someone come in who has the knowledge and enthusiasm to inspire the girls.




A major mainstream kids organization introducing the idea of martial arts as a fun and healthy activity is a good thing. We need to build interest not restrict it

Who said anything about restricting it, I have given my Rainbow's karate and some self defence lessons, I'm also asked to show the older Brownies, Guides and Rangers martial arts. You are misreading if you think I want to restrict it. What I'm saying is let's not have people who know nothing about martial arts trying to teach karate, instead let's have a qualified instructor in who can make it fun, interesting and informative as well as teach them a few things done properly. Is that too much to ask?
 

jobo

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You're leaving out two key parts of your incorrect statement. First, the age group (specified in the initial post). Second, that you were the one who claimed kids of that age (I can only assume you're referring to the same age group, since you didn't specify otherwise) can, in fact, learn such skills properly without any help.

Most kids do have help in learning those skills. They come from parents who know how to do them (like my dad did), other kids who are better at them (my cousins were always better at baseball than me), and maybe even coaches, if they ever play in a league. Very rare is the child who learns to swing a baseball bat properly with no input from someone else.
very rare, , ok so now your admitting that learning from other children is possible, so no adult needed
 
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