Built in safety "flaws"

[Badhabits]

I've recently been trying to pick out the "safety flaws" in training and specific techniques. Example would be when learning/practicing a throw and your instructor tells you NOT to perform the throw a certain way as you will injure your partner on their way down. In reality that's the way it should be done if your aim is to injure someone. Hitting with a clenched fist vs loose fist with good bone alignment is another one I've been playing with on the makiwara.
Just a couple of examples among many I'm sure. A degree of wading through this stuff is something I'm interested in as far as getting more functional MA.
Anyone interested in discussing this stuff?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've recently been trying to pick out the "safety flaws" in training and specific techniques. Example would be when learning/practicing a throw and your instructor tells you NOT to perform the throw a certain way as you will injure your partner on their way down. In reality that's the way it should be done if your aim is to injure someone. Hitting with a clenched fist vs loose fist with good bone alignment is another one I've been playing with on the makiwara.
Just a couple of examples among many I'm sure. A degree of wading through this stuff is something I'm interested in as far as getting more functional MA.
Anyone interested in discussing this stuff?

You can't really train gouging out an eyeball. You can simulate a lot of it, but it's not the same as using your thumb like a melon baller and removing the eyeball itself. Yet in self-defense, it's certainly a valid technique. How, then, to train?

You can't really train crushing a windpipe. Or jumping in the air and landing on the ribcage of an opponent on the ground. Or intentionally breaking limbs, stomping faces, popping eardrums. You can't simulate a baseball bat to the face at full power, but if I had to do it in self-defense, you bet I would.

As to throws, I don't know much about them, but I'm aware that there are some techniques in Judo that aren't practiced for the reason you described. Seems logical; no one wants to end up crippled from a training throw.

I always strike with a relaxed fist. Not loose and floppy, just relaxed. The fist will tighten itself up on impact. It'll be fine. I don't strike makiwara. My bones are too old for that kind of damage.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I've recently been trying to pick out the "safety flaws" in training and specific techniques. Example would be when learning/practicing a throw and your instructor tells you NOT to perform the throw a certain way as you will injure your partner on their way down. In reality that's the way it should be done if your aim is to injure someone. Hitting with a clenched fist vs loose fist with good bone alignment is another one I've been playing with on the makiwara.
Just a couple of examples among many I'm sure. A degree of wading through this stuff is something I'm interested in as far as getting more functional MA.
Anyone interested in discussing this stuff?

So what's the solution? To ignore safety procedures and actually harm your training partners?

As I've said before: the average aggressor on the streets does not train in martial arts. Whatever training methods you criticize, the average attacker on the streets isn't doing any of it or any other training at all. He's simply "winging it" when he decides that he wants to attack someone. You're not.

 

[Badhabits]

Thanks for responding Bill. I understand stopping your strikes and such for safety- obvious safety flaws, but I wonder what other flaws are built in that aren't so easy to recognize. We're taught, or at least I've been, to shoot out a punch as relaxed as possible and then to " squeeze the ball" on impact. Been told it increases damage to the target, been told it's to help you stop your punch so you don't overextend and damage your elbow joint etc. Then a guy told me the firming of the fist on impact is a "safety flaw" to protect your own wrist if your structure is less than great. As in, using muscle to sort patch your weak structure. So experimenting with it I've found I can hit the makiwara hard while letting my fingers sort hang down. Feels like using the tendons in the palm of the hand to keep them in that position. Can do the same making a fist without any kind of "clenching" on impact. Got me wondering if clenching the fist on impact is mainly to protect the person punching and is something we should be trying to move away from when your structure is good enough? I've been using a makiwara since my teens and am middle aged now. I don't believe we should be damaging ourselves with it just blindly hitting it lol. It's a great tool for structural feedback when used with some thought involved! Totally different beast than a heavy bag.

 

[Badhabits]

Hotlunch we must have typing at the same time. I don't mean ignore the safety precautions, I'm wondering what else is there that's not so obvious- the kind of thing you might only recognize if someone more knowledgeable points it out ya know?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Thanks for responding Bill. I understand stopping your strikes and such for safety- obvious safety flaws, but I wonder what other flaws are built in that aren't so easy to recognize. We're taught, or at least I've been, to shoot out a punch as relaxed as possible and then to " squeeze the ball" on impact. Been told it increases damage to the target, been told it's to help you stop your punch so you don't overextend and damage your elbow joint etc. Then a guy told me the firming of the fist on impact is a "safety flaw" to protect your own wrist if your structure is less than great. As in, using muscle to sort patch your weak structure. So experimenting with it I've found I can hit the makiwara hard while letting my fingers sort hang down. Feels like using the tendons in the palm of the hand to keep them in that position. Can do the same making a fist without any kind of "clenching" on impact. Got me wondering if clenching the fist on impact is mainly to protect the person punching and is something we should be trying to move away from when your structure is good enough? I've been using a makiwara since my teens and am middle aged now. I don't believe we should be damaging ourselves with it just blindly hitting it lol. It's a great tool for structural feedback when used with some thought involved! Totally different beast than a heavy bag.

You have been taught correctly, to 'squeeze the peach' upon impact. It doesn't increase damage to the target, it allows you to deliver more of your power. It doesn't keep you from overextending your arm.

The relaxed fist is supposed to relax. That's all. A clenched fist takes energy and slows the arm. Power does not come from the fist, or even from the arm, in a punch. It's the rotation of the body, powered by the hip. The fist is just the point of impact, not the delivery mechanism. Your whole body should be relaxed when delivering power, up to the point of impact. Chincuchi is tenseness at the point of impact. Everything should be aligned and moving in the same direction. Any other tenseness steals your power.

Your wrist alignment is vital, with a relaxed or a clenched fist.

 

[isshinryuronin]

You can't really train gouging out an eyeball. You can simulate a lot of it, but it's not the same as using your thumb like a melon baller and removing the eyeball itself. Yet in self-defense, it's certainly a valid technique. How, then, to train?

You can't really train crushing a windpipe. Or jumping in the air and landing on the ribcage of an opponent on the ground. Or intentionally breaking limbs, stomping faces, popping eardrums. You can't simulate a baseball bat to the face at full power, but if I had to do it in self-defense, you bet I would.

As to throws, I don't know much about them, but I'm aware that there are some techniques in Judo that aren't practiced for the reason you described. Seems logical; no one wants to end up crippled from a training throw.

I always strike with a relaxed fist. Not loose and floppy, just relaxed. The fist will tighten itself up on impact. It'll be fine. I don't strike makiwara. My bones are too old for that kind of damage.

Naturally (if you want any students surviving to pay next month's fees) there are many techniques that can't be fully executed on a partner. Throws and joint breaks have to be done without full rotation and power: strikes have to be done with kime or redirection. Yet, many catastrophic attacks can be trained by the following:

Use of pads, dummies, bags and other aids that allow contact.
Execute the fully lethal application correctly in solo practice and
Visualize the resulting effects such as squished eyeballs and snapped bones.

Training equipment, proper technique and frame of mind in practice will give as much realism as is possible without using cadavers or condemned criminals to experiment on (as was done in the good old days).

As far as hurting yourself during practice, knowing and executing proper technique and form will go a long way. One must always be aware of their body and motion. This is one of the main things in MA: self-discipline and self-control.
.

 

[Badhabits]

Bill what you said about tenseness at the point of impact- that's specifically what I'm wondering about- is it really necessary if skeletal alignment and structure is really good. The better our structure, the less muscle we need to use (my current understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[Hot Lunch]

I'd say that this is the very purpose of kata in traditional martial arts, and heavy bags/speed bags, etc in other arts. It allows to do you do train things at any level of force that you want without injuring another person.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks for responding Bill. I understand stopping your strikes and such for safety- obvious safety flaws, but I wonder what other flaws are built in that aren't so easy to recognize. We're taught, or at least I've been, to shoot out a punch as relaxed as possible and then to " squeeze the ball" on impact. Been told it increases damage to the target, been told it's to help you stop your punch so you don't overextend and damage your elbow joint etc. Then a guy told me the firming of the fist on impact is a "safety flaw" to protect your own wrist if your structure is less than great. As in, using muscle to sort patch your weak structure. So experimenting with it I've found I can hit the makiwara hard while letting my fingers sort hang down. Feels like using the tendons in the palm of the hand to keep them in that position. Can do the same making a fist without any kind of "clenching" on impact. Got me wondering if clenching the fist on impact is mainly to protect the person punching and is something we should be trying to move away from when your structure is good enough? I've been using a makiwara since my teens and am middle aged now. I don't believe we should be damaging ourselves with it just blindly hitting it lol. It's a great tool for structural feedback when used with some thought involved! Totally different beast than a heavy bag.

A .moving target is different.

 

[wab25]

Shinai are great for training.

Most arts have some sort of arm break.... you throw a straight punch, I move offline trapping your wrist and breaking your arm..... (lots of variations of this type of thing) Obviously, you need a partner punching you to get the timing and spacing. But, you can also have someone lunge at you with a shinai. Your "break" should seriously bend the shinai around your breaking fulcrum. The first few times people try this, they find that they have a hard time getting enough force to bend the shinai even a little. However, by focusing on proper technique and intent, you can quite easily bend the shinai. The trick then is to take the little adjustments you had to make, and keep those in your controlled partner drill. I would not say that bending the shinai means you can break the arm.... but I would say that if you can not bend the shinai, you will not be breaking any arms.

You can modify those holds you use on the downed opponent, that puts their arm or knee in danger, by replacing the arm or knee with the shinai. Again, learning the proper technique and intent to bend the shinai will improve your odds of being able to damage your opponent for real. Mostly, people learn real fast, that they are not in as strong a position as they thought they were.... and trying to bend the shinai throws them way off balance.

Get creative in your joint/arm/knee destructions and a shinai. Learn to do it first with your partner and control. Then introduce the shinai to show you where you need to work.

 

[Badhabits]

Isshinryronin, on throws and joint breaks, it seems like an awful lot of people don't realize what they practice in class is the safety version. I've been at a couple of schools where the blacks belts didn't understand that. A small alteration to the throw results in injury on the way down, not just a body slam. They weren't taught what many would call the "real" throw only the safe practice version. I'm not knocking anyone's teaching style here, just interested in weeding out the safety stuff in my own mind if that makes sense

 

[Badhabits]

Wab25, I'm going to look into the shinai. That's sounds like a great idea. The closest thing I've done to that is a wooden broom handle attached to the side of my makiwara with bungee cords to sort of imitate an arm sticking out there. I've been through a few by now lol. It does help with using motion around the makiwara to feed power into attacking the "arm"

 

[Badhabits]

A moving target is different.....very true Bill. The only moving target I've struck with the loose hand formation is a heavy bag that's swinging around. Hitting the hard part is fine, but the soft part that eats your hand is not so easy. Probably wasting my time with it. I'm a heavier set guy who tends toward tension, and the loose striking has at the very least helped me not be so tense when practicing. Maybe something I can milk some improvement to certain areas out of and then abandon.

 

[Holmejr]

Haha. Virtually every technique has to be throttled when practicing on a classmate. Otherwise there would be no one to play with, including me.

 

[Badhabits]

I hear you holmejr, I don't want to get thrashed all the time training either. I'm thinking more of techniques being altered for safety and we don't know it's an altered technique we're practicing.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Isshinryronin, on throws and joint breaks, it seems like an awful lot of people don't realize what they practice in class is the safety version. I've been at a couple of schools where the blacks belts didn't understand that. A small alteration to the throw results in injury on the way down, not just a body slam. They weren't taught what many would call the "real" throw only the safe practice version. I'm not knocking anyone's teaching style here, just interested in weeding out the safety stuff in my own mind if that makes sense

First of all, Bill's response on clenching the fist upon impact accurately covered all the bases. I'll only add that clenching the fist too firmly as you're punching will take away some speed as it can cause tension in the arm as well. Not clenching tight enough on impact can result in a sprained hand.

The difference between a safe throw, takedown and/or joint break and an injury causing one is very small. It's a matter of guiding the opponent down rather than powering him down, a gradual twist rather than a sudden one, taking one leg out rather than both, or allowing slack in the joint rather than pulling up on the joint as he's going down to the ground.

Many schools have lost sight of the basic purpose of MA, or simply choose to teach for exercise and "schoolyard" self-defense. There is definitely a market for such training, and I see no problem with that if the students know that is what they're learning.

 

[frank raud]

Isshinryronin, on throws and joint breaks, it seems like an awful lot of people don't realize what they practice in class is the safety version. I've been at a couple of schools where the blacks belts didn't understand that. A small alteration to the throw results in injury on the way down, not just a body slam. They weren't taught what many would call the "real" throw only the safe practice version. I'm not knocking anyone's teaching style here, just interested in weeding out the safety stuff in my own mind if that makes sense

Almost all Judo throws have you land on your side, instead of spiking you head into the ground, or landing on your back, with potential spine damage. As most arts steal ( ahem, sorry, are heavily influenced by Judo for their throws), you will be taught the " safer" version.

 

[skribs]

The account name is perfect for this thread!

One thing I've noticed that's very different from the "MMA" and "TMA" crowd is that the MMA crowd tends to focus on what works in training and sanctioned fight, where the TMA crowd tends to separate things into boxes like "sparring", "forms", and "self-defense".

Pushing the boundaries of what is safe in a methodical manner can be enlightening. An example is from BJJ, where you might take a trusted training partner and have them start with a submission 90% locked in, so that you can work on your defense against it. In normal rolls, I tap as soon as my arm is isolated. I have stayed very healthy as a result of this. But I also don't have a lot of defense against deeply set submissions. Starting at 90% with the goal to work out of it helps with that. Similarly, if I wanted to hurt someone, I wouldn't slowly apply pressure to a choke or slowly apply leverage to an armbar. I'd crank the crap out of it.

The counter argument is that if you have a safe way of throwing (X) and a "I want to hurt you" way of throwing (Y), and you mainly train X, then X is probably what's going to come out in a fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

when learning/practicing a throw and your instructor tells you NOT to perform the throw a certain way as you will injure your partner on their way down. In reality that's the way it should be done if your aim is to injure someone.

You should train both ways.

In "sport" hip throw training, after you have thrown your opponent down, you try to lift his body (on the waist) so his falling won't be too hard.



In "combat" hip throw training, you try to throw your opponent as hard as you can. You have no intention to protect him.



You can smash a throwing dummy.



You can't smash a training partner.