Unpopular Opinion: Bad guys "waiting their turn" in movie fight scenes is totally realistic

[skribs]

I think it would be easier to count the martial arts movies where this doesn't happen. The hero of our movie gets surrounded by a dozen henchman. One-by-one they attack, and one-by-one they fall. The majority of the audience cheers as the hero overcomes insurmountable odds. Then there's the armchair heavyweight champions that push up their glasses, "Ackshually, that was really just a dozen one-on-one fights, if they all attacked at the same time, it would have been much different."

While technically true, I think it's fairly realistic for a group of baddies to "take their turn". I'll give a few reasons why.

First, most of these discussions assume the bad guys are trained and coordinated enough to execute a simultaneous attack. Have you ever worked with anyone on a group project? How about with the type of people who probably failed group projects in school? Good characters are flawed. Henchmen are typically more flawed than the hero when it comes to fighting skill. It would make sense that they aren't a perfect unit. Along that note, sometimes it is the skill of the hero that is protecting him from being ganged up on. Quite often the hero is using movement to his advantage, to disrupt any chance the bad guys have of catching him.

Second, you can see in many real-world examples where people don't all go in at once. I'll give you two.

1. Wolves, when hunting, will often only have one or two wolves actually attacking the prey. The rest are keeping up the chase and growling to keep the prey intimidated. One wolf will go in for a nip. If the prey retaliates, that wolf will jump back and let another go in. If they all went in at once, it would be more dangerous. The idea is to wear out the prey and kill it with attrition, instead of to just get it in one go like a tiger or a crocodile. The same strategy would apply in a 12-on-1 fight, where 10-11 people are resting at any given time, and only 1 or 2 are exerting themselves. Meanwhile, the hero has to go at 100% for the whole fight. It just helps that he is so much better than them, that he can take them out with relatively little effort.
2. American Football. The defenders don't all rush to tackle the ball carrier. Against a run play, they will plug the gaps in the wall. The safety often doesn't immediately rush in. The safety will instead cut off escape routes. It's very similar to a schoolyard fight where two people are fighting, but the rest of the students create a wall to keep the fight going. A living ring or cage in which an unsanctioned bout will be decided.

Third, is simply my own experience fighting multiple opponents in sparring matches, and being on the multiples team. Like wolves, they play a very safe game and don't want to get hit. These are individuals who are concerned primarily with themselves. They know they have the numbers advantage, and they would rather their teammate get hit than themselves. Sometimes your partner is just in your way. It can be difficult to communicate a strategy, especially without the opponent hearing it. Often, my strategy is to be the safety valve and limit their movement, more than it is to attack directly.

This isn't to say that you won't get ganged up on in a fight against multiple opponents. However, I don't think it's unrealistic for people to take their turn, especially because I've seen it happen in real sparring.

 

[drop bear]

You could have used actual fights with multiple attackers as real world examples though.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Basically what db said. There's plenty of footage out there of real multiple person attack-why not use those as examples rather than going to wolves or schoolyard fights (both of which have different dynamics than a fight)?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Twelve people cannot all attack at once. It just doesn't work. Two or three certainly can, though, and from the reports you get in the ER, they certainly don't take turns, or avoid attacking when you are facing a different person.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Football fumble scramble is a great example of how only so many people can try to occupy the same space at once.

10 might try, 5 might actually get inside, but usually only one or two will get their hands on the ball.

Then there can be only one.

 

[skribs]

Twelve people cannot all attack at once. It just doesn't work. Two or three certainly can, though, and from the reports you get in the ER, they certainly don't take turns, or avoid attacking when you are facing a different person.

My post isn't to say that it's unrealistic for multiple assailants to attack at once. Just that it's not unrealistic for them to go one at a time.

There's plenty of footage out there of real multiple person attack-why not use those as examples rather than going to wolves or schoolyard fights (both of which have different dynamics than a fight)?

At first, I wanted to ask why analogies and similar situations are not allowed. Then, I wanted to ask how an animal fighting for its life (both the wolf for its food, and the prey for its survival), is not a "fight". Then I wanted to know how a fight is not a fight. Then I just figured why bother asking. If this is where we're starting from, I don't know where we'd be going.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My post isn't to say that it's unrealistic for multiple assailants to attack at once. Just that it's not unrealistic for them to go one at a time.

Based on real world experience, it is unrealistic.

 

[drop bear]

Here is an experiment you might want to try. Stick $50 in your sock the next time you multiple spar. And give it to the first guy who can get it.

 

[skribs]

Based on real world experience, it is unrealistic.

Based on my real world experience, it isn't.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

At first, I wanted to ask why analogies and similar situations are not allowed. Then, I wanted to ask how an animal fighting for its life (both the wolf for its food, and the prey for its survival), is not a "fight". Then I wanted to know how a fight is not a fight. Then I just figured why bother asking. If this is where we're starting from, I don't know where we'd be going.

Wow. Okay. So rather than answer my question, you get defensive, avoid providing an answer, "don't" ask 3 more questions in response, and dismiss the conversation before anything else. This will be my last post here, as I figured I'd do you the courtesy of answering your non-questions, but you've already expressed a back-and-forth is pointless.

1: Analogies and similar situations have both a big pro and a big con. The big pro is that they work very well at teaching somebody something. This is because they simplify the complicated portions of it, to make it more easily understandable. If they didn't do that there'd be no real use to them. However, they don't work nearly as well when it comes to debates, because that simplification can leave out either nuance, or just give the people your debating a difference that they can nitpick.

That said, there's no reason to use them here. You're making claim A, and can look up evidence of whether or not claim A is accurate. All you'd need is some evidence of fights that go like you said. Instead, you support claim A with claims b, c and d, with no evidence of those. Which even if you had evidence, why bother with those when claim A is enough on its own?

2: An animal fighting for its life is a fight. Although the wolf is not necessarily-if it loses this fight, it leaves and waits for the next fight. But that's not the sort of fight you were referencing with the movie scenes, which you know.

3: A fight is a fight. But schoolyard fights (at least the one you described) have a very specific way they work, which is closer to a duel than the type of multiple-person fight you're referring to with the movie scenes.

And I wasn't going to mention this initially, but making a caricature out of everyone who disagrees with you in your opening argument is kind of a scummy and useless debate tactic.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Based on my real world experience, it isn't.

You didn't mention any real world experience.
You talked about wolves, which we aren't.
You talked about sparring, with rules and people who have no desire to hurt you.
And you talked about football, where dog piles are illegal.
Those are not real world experience.

 

[Oily Dragon]

And you talked about football, where dog piles are illegal.

Are you talking about European football?

Dogpiles are definitely legal in American football. And pro ballers have said that inside the pile it is absolute chaos, there are no rules, people punch kick and claw each other. Total street rules.

I thought my fumble recovery gif was a funny way of showing how there's only so much volume you can fit a certain number of people inside.

 

[drop bear]

You didn't mention any real world experience.
You talked about wolves, which we aren't.
You talked about sparring, with rules and people who have no desire to hurt you.
And you talked about football, where dog piles are illegal.
Those are not real world experience.

Technically all part of the real world though.

And irony.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Are you talking about European football?

Dogpiles are definitely legal in American football. And pro ballers have said that inside the pile it is absolute chaos, there are no rules, people punch kick and claw each other. Total street rules.

Except for the unsportsman like conduct and unnecessary roughness penalties, sure.

I thought my fumble recovery gif was a funny way of showing how there's only so much volume you can fit a certain number of people inside.

It was.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Except for the unsportsman like conduct and unnecessary roughness penalties, sure.

It's actually super rare to see a flag thrown on fumble recovery, there's nobody to monitor inside the pile.

The refs give it few seconds to settle and then sort out the dead and wounded.

What Happens at the Bottom of an NFL Pile After a Fumble?

When the football is fumbled, a mad rush ensues as players pile on top of each other, fighting for the ball. What really goes on in that NFL pile?

www.sportscasting.com

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's actually super rare to see a flag thrown on fumble recovery, there's nobody to monitor inside the pile.

You're very focused on fumble recoveries. There are lots of other times during a game in which people could pile on. Like every single tackle. But they don't. Because illegal.

 

[skribs]

That said, there's no reason to use them here. You're making claim A, and can look up evidence of whether or not claim A is accurate. All you'd need is some evidence of fights that go like you said. Instead, you support claim A with claims b, c and d, with no evidence of those. Which even if you had evidence, why bother with those when claim A is enough on its own?

So then why do analogies exist in any sense? Shouldn't every argument stand on its own?

2: An animal fighting for its life is a fight. Although the wolf is not necessarily-if it loses this fight, it leaves and waits for the next fight. But that's not the sort of fight you were referencing with the movie scenes, which you know.

Many of those fights are people fighting for their life. Thank you for telling me what I do and don't know, and what I did and didn't mean when I said what I said.

3: A fight is a fight. But schoolyard fights (at least the one you described) have a very specific way they work, which is closer to a duel than the type of multiple-person fight you're referring to with the movie scenes.

A lot of fights are a duel...which the majority of the people on one side are rooting for one person to get beaten up. Often, that person is trying to leave.

You didn't mention any real world experience.

You didn't mention any real world experience in your post, except to say in your experience it doesn't. Why is your experience more valid than mine? Why is it valid when you say it, and not when I say it? Are you that high on yourself?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Not to use numerical superiority when available is dumb. Every advantage should be used. Of course, the battleground can accommodate only so many before they get in each other's way. I see three basic ways to use it:

1. To rotate attackers to wear down the opponent (like wolves). This is time consuming and risky for each individual.

2. To attack two or three at a time at different angles/targets (like lions where one grabs a leg, another the throat). I see this as most efficient. Among humans, this takes some intelligence and presence of mind for max effect, but I think even lions learn this by observing their elders.

3. To swarm and bring down the opponent by sheer mass (as I was taught to restrain and immobilize). This is best when coordinated as a team, pre-assigning each member a body part. This does require discipline and practice but has the advantage of limited risk for all concerned.

Regarding the movie aspect, Kill Bill has that scene where a hundred guys materialize out of nowhere. What puzzles me more than their attack strategy is, where the heck were all those guys before and what were they doing? Had they gone to the mattresses? Got interrupted during a poker tournament? Waiting for a Top Gun screening? And, did that place have enough bathrooms for everybody???? Let's not bicker and concentrate on important matters like these questions.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You didn't mention any real world experience in your post, except to say in your experience it doesn't. Why is your experience more valid than mine? Why is it valid when you say it, and not when I say it? Are you that high on yourself?

Because I mentioned the reports given by people who were actually assaulted by multiple opponents. You know... actual real world experience of people who were attacked by multiple opponents. Not a football players or angry puppies. It's anecdotal evidence, which is not ideal. But it's certainly better than childrens games.

 

[Rich Parsons]

When ( a while ago ) I did Bouncing and security, there were Multiple groups I would run into that I will break down here.

The first were Football (US) players who were used to working as a team. Hockey was another. These guys worked together outside as a team and worked together to defend their goalie or QB. That being said they were difficult to deal with.

Another group was the ones who had one or two heavy hitters and and the rest who would jump in when there was advantage.
Here is where the Boxers and Wrestlers shined as the heavy hitters and then the others could jump in once they were entangled or dropped to the ground.

The Third was the group that trained or fought a lot together and they knew their assignments.
These guys were dangerous and could be someone's worst night ever.

Another Group was the random group and they never knew what to do and almost always got in each other's way. Including those who would step out of the conflict completely.

And then there were the Randoms that created a group such as a pit at a concert.
They would purposefully hurt people or knock them into someone who they knew would hurt people and then once injured it was almost like a shark school encounter.

With the exception of the third group above ( those who trained and fought together ) and a few in the first group, there was various levels of danger almost depending upon the skills and experience of the groups. (* Yes being sarcastic and would show surprised face if in person *)

So , one acting and then another acting as they were not trained together.
I found that four was the "Fair" number , as with one thru three I could keep them lined up and moving myself to keep minimum engagement.

With more than four there usually was one or two weaker members so I was able to also keep them in the way of someone else who could attack together.

A college Football Team at a party I was bouncing was a dangerous encounter. I was saved by the environment of dropping and rolling under a table and creating space. They continued to push yet started to trip up over each other or the environment.

One group as I approached was threatening a minor employee (female) of mine. As the leader was reaching into the back of a van (* Poetic story line to say his hay maker was so far back it was easy to check *) - I was able to get there and reach out and check it. as he turned to address me and the others turned to surround me, I transferred the left hand to his throat.
As I was squeezing his throat and yelling to get the police called, and telling everyone involved they had to leave.
One of the guys politely tapped me and said he has turned purple twice.
So I let go.
The other five attacked at once together. As I was propelled backwards into a row of standing video game consoles, one went for my left leg, while another went to my right leg, and two one for each arm also tried to get a jacket up and over me head.
The fifth had grappled my back and became my pillow going into the consoles.
At the impact The guy I had stopped was charging forward to hit hard again.
I instinctively raised both legs to double kick the charging bad guy.
I caught him and went flying back . Me and the other 5 went down. I got hit and punched and kicked. I got up and gave orders to leave.
(* remember rules of engagement I was up they were still getting up, to avoid becoming the bad guy I gave them an option to leave *).
They continued and tackled into the consoles again. Up and down over about 1 minute to 90 second and about 12-15 feet of console lengths we did a rinse and repeat.
In there I was punted / field goal kicked in the ribs.
I was not winning.
I realized there was only four on me now and two others guys (* Never knew who it was *) each had one busy.
I was tackled again and I was headed towards the plate glass front window. I tried to go as low as possible and my forearm caught the sill area and my elbow, tricep and shoulder hit the bottom of the window. It popped out (* To this day I am just glad and can only thing the seal was older and ready to go *). The window bottom popped out and up while still attached near the top a little.
I rolled over a person who was on my left side and on my back and while looking up I saw the window still going up.
I was scarred and rolled faster to hands and knees and scrambled away.
Thank fully as it shattered over them is was safety glass , so they were paper cut to ribbons.

I still stood back and ordered and guided them to their vehicles.
As we got closer and two got in the back the other four converged on me and I stepped back between two vehicle to try to limit their access to me.
I was hyper aware / lucky and saw a flash of light and movement to my left and parried the knife coming out of the open window .
I was able to use the door for an armbar and disarm .

So I am there holding their knife, they are cut to ribbons ( Paper Cuts ) and we all have witness marks of our encounter including the two who had been "Handled" by others.
Can we guess what happened then?
Yes - In roll multiple Police vehicles.

Not fun after that nor after I closed ( hours later ) and had to go down and finish the report and then go to the hospital per recommendation of the police officer (SGT) who tool the pictures and my side of the report.

****
Summary:
It Depends
Smart defense strategies can help align for this limitation for numbers of engagement.

Yet, when it does happen with the numbers all working together or close enough, it is a bad night.