Bruce Lee.. Overrated?

[Shotgun Buddha]

Most of what Bruce Lee did was not particularly spectacular by todays standards. It was just unusual at the time. And its not even that particularly unusual, it was just unusual in a VERY public way.
Hence it got attention.

First off cross-training. Cross-training isn't new. During any period where different styles have alot of contact and communication with each other, there will be a certain amount of give and take going on.
Likewise there will also be periods where styles become very self-focused, and contact with other styles is limited(often deliberately), where they are insular and change is frowned upon.
It tends to be cyclical, although the emergence of communication tools such as the internet are causing the sharing of ideas on a much larger scale, and insular schools are becoming a more isolated pheneomon.

Back to Brucey. What he did was during a period of styles being insular, go the opposite direction. There were probably a number of people who did this, however Bruce did it in a public way. This consequently popularised the idea a great deal.
Was this idea revolutionary? No its a re-occuring one anyway, but its one he made alot more people familiar with.

Point two, he made some entertaining movies. This once again was very public so attracted attention, so popularised martial arts.

Point three, he wrote some books that weren't great. I know the Tao of Jeet Kune Do is very popular and all, but its not nearly the most useful book for martial arts training. First off, its too technique orientated.
Second, tries too hard to be philisophical. Im not sure if it was merely because English wasn't his first language, if it was a marketing gimmick, of if like others he missed the point, but that book is full of pieces of butchered Taoism nailed to the cross of martial arts.
A far more useful book for martial artists, and one not even focused on the subject of martial arts, is a book called Deep Survival by Laurenz Gonzales. It covers how the body deals with survival situations, and how the body learns its responses to them.

So basic the gist of is this - Bruce Lee didn't write the message he just delivered it at a good time.


Note- This is not disrespecting is abilities, merely an assessment of the situation.

 

[joeygil]

The Gracies perhaps made the general public aware that grappling was necessary...

I have to disagree with that statement. I don't think ground grappling was necessary until the ground grapplers (Gracies) brought it to the game. At least not in America. Before that, you could do fine without it. Now you can't.

@Shotgun Buddha

Cross-training may not have been new, but it was definately not in use during the late 60's and 70's in the US. So in that sense Bruce Lee was being innovative. I also doubt anybody had been as systematic as he in cross-training and synthesizing different arts into a more or less coherent form.

As to how many people were not being insular in their study of martial arts, I doubt it was anywhere near common anywhere besides maybe Asia (China in particular).


And as to his books that "weren't great." Yeah, perhaps not by today's standards. I dont' think there was much out there like "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method" books. As to The Tao of JKD, that wasn't a "book" he wrote. It was a congomeration of his notes in a very disorganized manner cobbled together after his death. It has notes from many different points of his martial arts development, and contradicts itself a lot (as he changed his mind a lot).


Don't forget he also advocated full contact sparring. Back then "sparring" was point sparring at best, and at worst didn't involve any contact! Judges would decide wether or not that *would have been a hit*

He incorporated boxing equipment - focus mitts, punching bag, and boxing gloves into training. Others weren't doing that then.


As far as his movies...I think his flicks really really popularized martial arts and martial art movies in the 70's. Before he hit the mainstream, most of the movies coming over from Hong Kong were full of magic and flying monks. His flicks added a certain amount (no 100%) realism to martial art movies - which I think inspired a LOT of people to look into martial arts seriously.


In summary, I think he was a huge influence and an innovator, at least in America.

 

[Touch Of Death]

you are joking right?
read up on the man and find some articles with those who had trained with him to hear of how he could watch someone do a technique,then he'd do it break it down, and improve on it. gracies more than him?????/ please

Name a master that doesn't do this and I will show you someone whom is not a master.
Sean

 

[Andrew Green]

I have to disagree with that statement. I don't think ground grappling was necessary until the ground grapplers (Gracies) brought it to the game. At least not in America. Before that, you could do fine without it. Now you can't.

No, nothing is neccessary as most people don't fight at all

But ignoring that.

North America has a lot of people that wrestled in school / college. It also has a lot of Judo people. Fights end up on the ground even when neither person intended it to go there.

The Gracies brought some new things to the table, such as the effectiveness of using the guard to fight off your back, and using submissions to take out a much larger opponent.

But the "threat" of ground fighting has always been there, it just went ignored. Now that the UFC is popular I suppose it is more of one, as without training people tend to immitate what they see working for others. Before this was mainly boxers, now MMA fighters are in there too.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I have to disagree with that statement. I don't think ground grappling was necessary until the ground grapplers (Gracies) brought it to the game. At least not in America. Before that, you could do fine without it. Now you can't.

quote]I don't know, every football player I've ever met has a handle on tackling, and if memory serves, kids were playing football before the Gracies introduced grappling to North America.
Sean

 

[joeygil]

Good points on the grappling. I wasjust thinking in the context of "classical martial arts." I stand (or maybe not) corrected.

 

[zDom]

FWIW, the first UFC was November 12, 1993, right?

I started hapkido around March 1991 specifically because I identifed grappling as a weakness for me.

Of course, at that time I referred to this fighting range as "wrestling." I wanted to have skills to deal with those who "got ahold of me."

UFC / Gracies UNDERSCORED the importance of grappling, but there were some (I'm sure I'm not the ONLY one) who understood the importance of this fighting range before the Gracies appeared on the scene.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Anyone remember "judo" Gene?

 

[Kwan Jang]

P.S.-Most of the top name martial artists of the 60's and 70's were also judo or JJJ black belts, including Wall, Lewis, Norris, Wallace, ect.

 

[zDom]

Anyone remember "judo" Gene?

Yep. Mr. LeBell and his (in)famous pink gi

And I've heard the story about Mr. LeBell and Bruce Lee, too

 

[matt.m]

P.S.-Most of the top name martial artists of the 60's and 70's were also judo or JJJ black belts, including Wall, Lewis, Norris, Wallace, ect.

Wallace was huge into judo, that was before his leg injury. Is Norris's background Tang Soo Do? I would think that has quite a bit of grappling and ground work. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Tang Soo Do somewhat of a mixture of Hapkido, Yudo, with poomsea and one steps identical to tae kwon do?

 

[James Kovacich]

Name a master that doesn't do this and I will show you someone whom is not a master.
Sean

You misunderstood. It is said (I wasn't there) that he could "on the spot" watch a technique (not be taught it) and do it better that his own way that the guy that did it in the first place.

 

[James Kovacich]

I have to disagree with that statement. I don't think ground grappling was necessary until the ground grapplers (Gracies) brought it to the game. At least not in America. Before that, you could do fine without it. Now you can't.

quote]I don't know, every football player I've ever met has a handle on tackling, and if memory serves, kids were playing football before the Gracies introduced grappling to North America.
Sean

Actually Mr. Tarow Hayashi was taching his version of MMA in the 1970's. My brother-in-law earned his black belt from him in 1976 and a requirement for 1st black was a minimum os a 3rd brown in Judo.
http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

 

[g-bells]

Name a master that doesn't do this and I will show you someone whom is not a master.
Sean

are the masters your talking about, able to watch it once, then do it, then break it down to show the weakness and fix it?

 

[Touch Of Death]

You misunderstood. It is said (I wasn't there) that he could "on the spot" watch a technique (not be taught it) and do it better that his own way that the guy that did it in the first place.

I can do that too, but I'm no master.
Sean

 

[Robert Lee]

The debate over Bruce can go on for ever. It has for many years. In real time. His Art call it Jun fan or JKD does work can help even improve others in a different art by relistict training. Its better to look into Jun fan or JKd train it at least for a while then make up your mind. Bruce by his self has been over rated by some and not enough by others The Art speaks for its self as long as you make it your own.

 

[James Kovacich]

I can do that too, but I'm no master.
Sean

If you understand the statement. You are saying that "you" can watch anyone and can repeat "any" technique and do it better. That would include doing it better than your instructor without him ever teaching the technique to you.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

are the masters your talking about, able to watch it once, then do it, then break it down to show the weakness and fix it?

Whats your evidence Bruce could do that?

 

[James Kovacich]

Whats your evidence Bruce could do that?

Whats your evidence that he couldn't? There are many who knew Bruce and yes they say he did just that. They were there and thats what they say. That qualifies for evidence.

There are many who like to discredit others based on movies or heresay. Some say I knew him but they didn't train with him and if they did they have great things to say.

Theres always going to "creme of the crop" martial artists and theres always going to be haters that wish they were "creme of the crop."

 

[g-bells]

Whats your evidence Bruce could do that?

many of his original students have disclosed these facts in various articles.