Ever lost in rank?

[charyuop]

I was talking with my Sensei who is a Godan (5th Dan). He explained me that Dan is not something you keep for life. The more you train the more you go up in the ranking, but it can also happen the opposite, that is going down the rank.

I was wondering if anyone actually happened to have lost Dan in their Black Belt system.

 

[terryl965]

I was talking with my Sensei who is a Godan (5th Dan). He explained me that Dan is not something you keep for life. The more you train the more you go up in the ranking, but it can also happen the opposite, that is going down the rank.

I was wondering if anyone actually happened to have lost Dan in their Black Belt system.

I have never heard that you can loose you rank once it was given, but I guess anything is possible, but I do know this they can never take away what you have learned.

 

[Ceicei]

Well, perhaps not necessarily not go down in rank per se, but if not constantly training, the knowledge can fade away from lack of use and in a sense, you might "lose rank" that way... just my thoughts.

- Ceicei

 

[Grenadier]

It's exceptionally rare, but once in a blue moon, if there's an earth-shaking event from within a particular martial arts system, the chief instructors of the style might convene, and re-test various people amongst the instructor ranks.

I've seen it happen once, when the head of an organization had taken a long hard look at everyone training under his first generation of students, and found too many inconsistencies amongst them. Once he convened the meeting of the chief instructors, he ordered that everyone be tested according to the standards that he set forth, and that anyone who did not meet the requirements would be placed at the appropriate rank.

Despite this occurrence, the re-test was actually good for most of the yudansha, in that many of them were promoted, or stayed at the current rank. Only in a handful of instances, were yudansha demoted, and the vast majority of the demotees kicked things into gear and re-acquired their former ranks quickly.

 

[tellner]

Other than kicking someone out of the system I've never heard of this.

 

[Kacey]

I was talking with my Sensei who is a Godan (5th Dan). He explained me that Dan is not something you keep for life. The more you train the more you go up in the ranking, but it can also happen the opposite, that is going down the rank.

I was wondering if anyone actually happened to have lost Dan in their Black Belt system.

How can you take away someone's knowledge? I know of an organization that included in their handbook how to demote a VII Dan... but what are they going to do? Suck the knowledge out of the person's head?

As Ceicei said, you can forget things through lack of use - but even so, rank, once earned, cannot be taken away except on paper... and even if you're inactive, you will recall some things, and the rest will come back much faster than a person new to the information could learn it. Certainly, under such circumstances, the person would need to relearn the knowledge and skills before testing again, but I see no reason to demote someone with black belt level experience during that time.

While I can understand the example Grenadier gave, when standards are tightened and practitioners are retested to see if they meet those standards - a very rare occurence - I have never seen it happen in 20 years of active training and instruction.

 

[charyuop]

How can you take away someone's knowledge? I know of an organization that included in their handbook how to demote a VII Dan... but what are they going to do? Suck the knowledge out of the person's head?

I don't think what my Sensei meant was sucking away knowledge. I think what he meant more was sucking away Dan if you lose your knowledge.
Human brain and muscle memories are not infinite or with no failure. If you stop practicing the Art for sometime and then restart I can see that your skill might not be the same. I am sure that even if demoted it won't take very long to reacquire the skills you lost with lack of practice and thus regain the old rank.

I have lived my life in the country where I was born (Italiy). 6 Years ago I moved to USA and even tho I spoke all my life Italian, after 6 years of not speaking Italian I forgot some words. Sometimes my mind goes blank thinking how to say a word and might take a while to remember it. So I wouldn't be surprised that the same happened in Martial Arts.

 

[Haze]

Rank is something that you earn and are awarded on THAT day at THAT test.

You might not pass the same test next week, never know.

I can not see anyone taking away rank. That is the same as taking away someones High School Diploma because you do not remember all the pertinant dates of historical events. Or a university taking back your Masters Degree because you don't remember everything you knew when you were in grad school.

Rank is given based on what you have accomplished. No one can take your accomplishments away.

 

[matt.m]

If you don't use it then you lose it. I have a blue belt, but I still run through Chongi and IlJang before and run them in order so I dont lose them.......I have to refer back to manuals every so often.

Hapkido is no different, doing both concurrently is a crazy ride. Anyway, I have seen/heard of others being outed of the org. I have seen/heard of others leaving the org. they are in to go off on their own.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Earning a Black Belt and higher is like a High School degree, or College Degree. Once earn...always stays with you.

But any head of schools can make there own rules on this. NO right or wrong on this. Subject to your Schools rules and regulations.

Like a college degree? We do forget about alot of formulas and things that were taught.

Many past Black belts tell me "Yes I did earn a Black Belt! ...but have not train for a long, long , time and forgot alot things, plus not physcial fit like before. Many say if they get back in...they would like to start as a white belt.

Also at the same time: They still know things that will work for them on the streets.

Can we compare this to a Degree, awarded to you...because you earn it. Later in life...things change...but you can still say I did get a Black Belt once in ABC Martial arts?

My thoughts on this: Once earn...You deserved the right to claim to have being a Black belt once. Off course since we are no longer trainning....We have forgottan alot things and not physcial prepare like before.

In our Kempo-Karate system, If you left the school (couple of years or more) and come back....It is the Professor choice plus your present Instructor to allow you to come back as a Black Belt.,PLay catch up or ( you can choose to return as a white belt too).

To be reduce to a lower rank? It will always be what your Professor/Instructor decides is best for the program. The Army does it!
==========================================================

ON the streets RANKS means nothing....survival is everything...the colors or ranks will not help you. Having a title is just a title. It is your skills and determination to fight back that will save you. Knowledge and physcial fittness are the keys...NO matter what the level or rank or Black belt you have worn.

Be smart...awarness and avoidness...and running...are the best skill to aquire............Aloha

PS: Nothing is lower than someone who claims to be what they are NOT.

 

[stickarts]

I don't see someone as losing rank however, I think of training as a perishable commodity! If you fail to practice your skills will slowly slip from you. Most people are either moving forward or backward in their training.

If someone were to abuse what they are taught or misrepresent the school, I can see no longer recognizing their ranking, however, that's another story!

 

[Kacey]

I can not see anyone taking away rank. That is the same as taking away someones High School Diploma because you do not remember all the pertinant dates of historical events. Or a university taking back your Masters Degree because you don't remember everything you knew when you were in grad school.

Rank is given based on what you have accomplished. No one can take your accomplishments away.

Hello, Earning a Black Belt and higher is like a High School degree, or College Degree. Once earn...always stays with you.

Haze and still learning give the analogy that I couldn't think of (I'm sick, and the congestion in my chest is affecting my brain) - like a diploma or advanced degree, once you've earned, it's yours for life. I have a BA in Psychology and a MA in Counseling... but as a teacher, I rarely use much of the theoretical knowledge I learned in my courses (and I know I've forgotten what I learned in Calculus), and therefore don't recall it - does that mean I no longer have those degrees? Likewise, for the many people who earned a BB and then stopped practicing, for whatever reason, still, IMHO, still have a BB. They put in the blood, sweat and tears necessary to earn that rank, and it is theirs for life - that doesn't mean they can't forget knowledge or lose skills - and certainly, if their instructor reduces their rank for legitimate reasons, that's up to the instructor - but that's not been my experience.

If someone were to abuse what they are taught or misrepresent the school, I can see no longer recognizing their ranking, however, that's another story!

Very true! Demotion for abuse of skills learned is a totally different issue than demotion due to time away. The latter facet ties into a discussion that was held earlier (can't find it right now) about the loss of physical ability as one grows older. Many people lose abilities for reasons unrelated to lack of practice - injury, illness, age, etc. - and are not able to perform at 50 the way they did at 20. Does this mean they should lose their rank, because their skills have declined? I cannot think so.

Likewise, people who do not practice for reasons related to their lives (children, advanced education, illness in the family, job troubles, etc.) should not be reduced in rank when they come back - given the high number of people who quit, and the low number who return, I would rather give returning students the benefit of their past experience, and the extra time necessary to regain their skills, than make them requalify for rank they already earned.

 

[searcher]

I read a piece out of a book a few years back and I remember Mas Oyama saying this. I had never heard of it until that point.

Now I do have a twist on this. At one of my Instructor's school, he stripped 3 different students of rank just prior of their expulsion fromt he school. Two for theft and one for another reason. This is the only way I have seen it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Never heard of taking away rank before. But then I have not trained in a style the gives out rank for over 15 years.

What aikido federation is this part of?

 

[bluemtn]

I've only heard of one person having their black belt taken away, temporarily- twice. That's the only time I've heard it happen.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I was talking with my Sensei who is a Godan (5th Dan). He explained me that Dan is not something you keep for life. The more you train the more you go up in the ranking, but it can also happen the opposite, that is going down the rank.

I was wondering if anyone actually happened to have lost Dan in their Black Belt system.

Control freeeeaaaaak!

 

[jks9199]

How can you take away someone's knowledge? I know of an organization that included in their handbook how to demote a VII Dan... but what are they going to do? Suck the knowledge out of the person's head?

As Ceicei said, you can forget things through lack of use - but even so, rank, once earned, cannot be taken away except on paper... and even if you're inactive, you will recall some things, and the rest will come back much faster than a person new to the information could learn it. Certainly, under such circumstances, the person would need to relearn the knowledge and skills before testing again, but I see no reason to demote someone with black belt level experience during that time.

While I can understand the example Grenadier gave, when standards are tightened and practitioners are retested to see if they meet those standards - a very rare occurence - I have never seen it happen in 20 years of active training and instruction.

I know of a few situations where black belts were taken as a symbolic gesture that the person wasn't teaching/performing at the level that was expected. I know of others where associations revoked their sanction of the person...

You can't really take a person's knowledge, as you said. But the association or instructor can say that "you don't match our standards; we expect more and until you show it, you can't wear our black belt."

Standards change all the time; the association I belong to changed it's testing process and some of the standards a few years ago, and more changes are rumored to be coming in the near future. That's fine; they can't take my knowledge; I just can't get anymore status until I play by the new rules.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Some organizations do demote students after they have not trained in awhile or they make them renew their rank after so much time. This practice is wrong if you earned that rank it is yours forever. No one cane take away the knowledge that you have gained. The rank is the rank thats it, I know of a situation that a instructor sent someone to pick up one of his black belts belts when she was thrown out of their school. In this case it was the instructors step daughter and it was her brother this guy sent to get her belt. Well she had all the proper paperwork for her rank and people knew her well enough in the area they knew what rank she was so she gave her brother the belt, then went and got a new one and is still training just in another school. Many times this type of practice is a money thing or done out of anger.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Ranks/Black Belt is an achievement that was awarded to you at that time. Like a College degree.

Time move on, so does a person life, NO one stays the same way...age changes everyone.
==================================================

Rank or Degrees : Does not have requriements to be maintain. Very few things in life requries one to maintain a certain level.

Like a Policeman, they can move up in rank...but they never have do the physcial requriements when they first join. Very few people can do what they did before. (looking back when you were award a BB.).
===================================================

Doing things that is NOT right(NOT becomeing of a martial arts)from your SENSI....ranks and Belts can be taken away but has nothing to do with physcial requriements. If you lose a leg in a car acccident....does this mean you lose your RANK? Off course NOT. You had earn the right to wear your RANK.

............interesting topic....most of us agree....once earn! ....it yours..but doing things your Sensi feels is WRONG....than they can remove your RANK.....Busted down. ..................has to do with moral charcter....Aloha

 

[IWishToLearn]

My school has three status for rank:
Active (Training at least 4x a month)
Inactive (Haven't trained for 61 days-10 months): Must retest for current belt level and pass with 95% to go on to new material.
Retired (Haven't trained for 11 months+): Must retest for all previous belt ranks and pass with 95% or higher before being allowed to go on to new materials.