Brown Belts

[KenpoGirl]

In the process of Typing out the Belt requirements for my instructors school I was reminded of a question that's bugged me for a couple years. (Ever since Gou got his 3rd Brown in Kenpo actually)


The Brown Belts go .....

3rd Brown = Brown belt with 1 strip at ends
2nd Brown = Bown belt with 2 strips at ends
1st Brown = Brown belt with 3 strips at ends

Correct?

I was curious why this is. Why not go reverse the 3rd thru 1st so its 1st brown = 1 strip etc.....

This is a nonimportant question, just something I was curious about. If there were a logical answer besides, "SGM Parker did it that way, So There", I'd enjoy learning about it.

LOL and of course I would be completely mixed up and it is 1st with one strip, but you can correct me on that too.

Thanks

Dot

 

[Elfan]

My understanding is that traditionaly in Japan the Kyu grades (not black) counteed backwords towards 1st black while the Dan ranks counted up from 1st black. That tradition was preserved when the American Kenpo belt system was created/expanded/whatever.

 

[Kirk]

I heard it had something to do with the way Coast Guard ranks
are set up. Dunno for sure though.

 

[Elfan]

bunch o links

Japanese karate

http://24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/19_belts.html

http://24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/belts/belts.html

http://24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/belts/rankhistory.html

Tracey/parker info

http://www.geocities.com/Ishtar786_2000/Beltrequirments.html

So my best answer is that the brown belt stuf came from Japanese karate which borrowed the belt ranking system of Judo. The backwards counting was just tradition that there was no benifit to change so the tradition was retained. That a satisfactory answer?

 

[Goldendragon7]

The belt is borrowed from the Japanese system in the first place so some (not all) traditions apply.

When you begin your training you start at the lowest rank which is an 8th or 10th (depending upon the system) class student and work your way up to the top or 1st position. Much like in music there are chairs. The lowest chair is the 3rd chair then 2nd then the best or 1st chair.
In the Japanese systems, "Kyu" means class for the lower belts. In the Black Belt ranks they use the word "Dan) pronounced don which means step.

Kenpo Belts starts with:

White.............. 9th class student (KuKYU)
Yellow............. 8th class student (HachiKYU)
Orange............. 7th class student (SichiKYU)
Purple............. 6th class student (RokKYU)
Blue............... 5th class student (GoKYU)
Green.............. 4th class student (YonKYU)

3rd Degree Brown... 3rd class student (SanKYU)
2nd Degree Brown... 2nd class student (NiKYU)
1st Degree Brown... 1st class student (IkKYU)

Black Belt Ranks are:
1st Degree Black - ShoDAN
2nd Degree Black - NiDAN
3rd Degree Black - SanDAN
4th Degree Black - YoDAN
5th Degree Black - GoDAN
6th Degree Black - RokkuDAN
7th Degree Black - SichiDAN
8th Degree Black - HachiDAN
9th Degree Black - KuDAN
10th Degree Black - JuDAN

As one increases in Rank ...... so do the stripes so (as an example) in the Navy, if you are a 3rd class seaman - you wear 1 stripe, a 2nd class seaman - would wear 2 stripes and 1st class seaman you would wear 3 stripes.

We utilize this designation for our "LOWER" belts as in the military....... the higher the rank the more the stripes. This continues with the officers....... the more the stars the higher the general. You always start lower to higher. one stripe on up..... the only difference is that we call the lowest brown belt 3rd due classification under step, like in the military lower enlistees vs. officers.

Buttttttttttttttttt....... In the Black Belt Ranks
it works in reverse. The more stripes you have the higher ranked you are. A little confusing .... well possibly but you can see from the Japanese Root belt structure of class vs. steps where the symbolism comes from.

:asian:



Fixed typo at user request - kaith

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

The belt is borrowed from the Japanese system in the first place so some (not all) traditions apply...

Thank you Mr. C.

I had at least one mistake at
http://www.cdouglashall.com/belts.html
so I intend to go fix it now based on your input. Will that will be OK with you?
I hope so. I'll wait on a word from you. I'll quote you as a source of course.
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

:asian:

 

[KenpoGirl]

Thank you everyone for your help, you've really cleared things up and though I would tend to think matching the stripes with the designation would be a lot less confussing, I now understand where it comes from.

Dennis one point..........

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

As one increases in Rank ...... so do the stripes so if you are a 3rd class seaman in the Navy (as an example)you wear 1 stripe 2nd class seaman - 2 stripes and 3rd class seaman 3 stripes.

:asian:

That last part of your explaination, was it suppose to be 1st class seaman 3 stripes? Yes? You have 3rd Class twice so I just wanted to clarify it in my own head. It was an excellent explaination. :asian:

Dot

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by KenpoGirl
Dennis one point..........
That last part of your explaination, was it suppose to be 1st class seaman 3 stripes?
Yes?
You have 3rd Class twice so I just wanted to clarify it in my own head. It was an excellent explaination. :asian: Dot

Yes, I will have that corrected ..... sorry.
thanks for catching that.


:shrug:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Fixed

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by KenpoGirl

Thank you everyone for your help, you've really cleared things up and though I would tend to think matching the stripes with the designation would be a lot less confussing, I now understand where it comes from.

I'm with you!

 

[Goldendragon7]

Now get back to worrying about Blue and don't look so damn far ahead!

 

[Nightingale]

where it gets really confusing is that some kenpo schools do match stripes with belts, and some don't.

If I walk into my old school, I'm a first brown (one stripe).

and now, in my new school, I'm a third brown (one stripe), but same rank... sigh... confusing...

However, as soon as Mr. Grilli gets me a yellow belt, I'm gonna wear that. (I tested for that two weeks ago) I asked them to test me all the way up through the system again, because the new studio does all 154 techniques (old school only had 98) and all the sets and forms (old school only required through long 3, and only set was fingerset). I really don't feel that I have the right to be wearing a brown belt, when their blue belts know so much stuff that I don't, so even though they told me I could keep the brown if I wanted, I want to take it off, because wearing it doesn't feel right. Does that make any sense? What do other people feel about a situation like this?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Where it gets really confusing is that some kenpo schools do match stripes with belts, and some don't.
If I walk into my old school, I'm a first brown (one stripe).
and now, in my new school, I'm a third brown (one stripe), but same rank... sigh... confusing...

Yes, If they are going to be American Kenpo and claim roots to Ed Parker then they should use the AK traditional belt system and curriculums.

Originally posted by nightingale8472
However, as soon as Mr. Grilli gets me a yellow belt, I'm gonna wear that. (I tested for that two weeks ago) I asked them to test me all the way up through the system again, because the new studio does all 154 techniques (old school only had 98) and all the sets and forms (old school only required through long 3, and only set was fingerset). I really don't feel that I have the right to be wearing a brown belt, when their blue belts know so much stuff that I don't, so even though they told me I could keep the brown if I wanted, I want to take it off, because wearing it doesn't feel right. Does that make any sense? What do other people feel about a situation like this?

I think this is an issue between Mr. Grilli and yourself. If you wish to wear the yellow and retire your old Brown because you feel inferior with the skill and material and are willing to work thru the material again..... then I say wear your yellow and work even harder. There is nothing (better) like wearing a belt you feel deserving of. Yet, there is nothing (worse) than wearing a belt that you do not deserve and you know and feel it. All you can do is become better and more knowledgeable and feel much more confidence in yourself.

I personally salute you and your efforts to seek and learn a higher and more skillful art than your old studio.

Too Bad you can't ship your "attitude" to several of the Black Belts out there that could use a good system enema and demotion to the appropriate rank that they actually deserve vs. what they are currently wearing.

:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

What I'm really doing is looking at it as two different systems...

The stuff I was learning before wasn't really the AK system, because it was incomplete. It was someone's adaptation of AK. Therefore, my brown belt wasn't in AK in the first place. Should I ever go back into my old school for a seminar (they have some pretty cool weapons seminars every so often), I'd wear the brown, because that's the rank I am in that system. And I'd have to wear brown in a tournament, because I used to compete so often that most people in my division know I compete at brown level, and would have issues if they saw me competing at yellow.

However, in AK, in my new school, I don't know the material they're teaching, and therefore, I don't have the right to wear the brown rank in that school. I really feel like I'm disrespecting the training of everyone that stands in line behind me because I'm wearing brown and they're wearing blue or purple, because they know a lot of kenpo stuff that I don't.

honestly, I don't see any point in wearing a rank that you don't deserve, because its what's in your brain that counts, not what's tied around your waist. The only reason I like rank is that it makes it easy for me to look around the studio and figure out who knows something that I don't, so I can go bug them to show me something!

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


There is nothing (better) like wearing a belt you feel deserving of. Yet, there is nothing (worse) than wearing a belt that you do not deserve and you know and feel it.

I coudn't agree more. I really didn't feal I deserved my belt rank after the last two tests and still feal bad about wearing it. It is of cource my fault because I accepted it but its hard to figure out what to do as I am in kenpo limbo land with no instructor right now. Wear a new belt of apropriate rank that I sort of give myself? Just wait until I find teacher? *sigh*

Good luck at your new school!!!

 

[Nightingale]

find a new teacher, let them evaluate you and adjust your rank accordingly.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I personally salute you and your efforts to seek and learn a higher and more skillful art than your old studio.

Ditto!

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Now get back to worrying about Blue and don't look so damn far ahead!

Hehehehe

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

find a new teacher, let them evaluate you and adjust your rank accordingly.

Those simple answers tend to be best ;-)

Thanks, thats basically what I'm planning, just going to take a little while due to other issues.

 

[GouRonin]

Makes you wonder how all these systems without ranks manage to survive, doesn't it?

I find I am much happier without rank, 'cause I ain't rank.