Breathe Through Your Hands

[franklinstower]

@franklinstower that may be the quickest ive ever had soomeone 'vote' on one of my posts. Im not entirely convinced i hit send before i got your alert

I was sitting right there when it came in. I liked it because it seems smart to be able to punch without exhaling and if you can get more power with an exhale then save that for a power shot.

 

[Gweilo]

it's only magic in respect that the potential of our bodies if we control our emotions and nervous system are a enormous and the abilities of them that do are well outside the scope of those that don't and that can indeed appear magical, if you lack understanding of the mechanisms involved

I had to let you know, that is probably, almost the most sensible thing you have posted.sorry edit, in this thread.

 

[Buka]

Well I was on Atlantis the other day talking with Nessy, Big Foot, Yeren and the Yeti and they say science CAN be wrong

That was you? Damn, bro, I didn't even see you.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That was you? Damn, bro, I didn't even see you.

Id ask for proof....but you'd somehow find it. And it would become a whole big thing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, no one would think it was confirmation bias were they to have seen and experienced the things I have in this realm of Kung Fu and internal energy and meditation. There is just no way whatsoever, and the more I converse with other martial artists, the more I feel myself to have been very lucky in who I met and what I was taught.

For me there is no doubt whatsoever that there are "energies" available to us that are not known or labeled by science yet. It is a matter of fact and experience for me and the sheer range of that experience, and the variety of it, excludes any other possibility. I don't think that any reasonable person with the same experience set would feel any differently.

I know what frauds are. I have met fraudulent teachers both in marital arts and in the meditation world. I've met and known scammers and opportunist and I have also met real normal stable people for whom these realities are a working part of their lives. I have been trained by these people and am very grateful for that.

I think I see where you're coming from. Those kinds of statements, however, hold equally true (meaning the experience is real to the person experiencing it) when accurate, or when a result of confirmation bias. People quite regularly cite "miraculous" results that can also be found without the intervention they suggest is the cause. This is why I say you can't really be sure (the generic "you" - you as an individual can be sure whenever your personal threshold is met) until the results are compared to a randomized control group.

I feel pretty certain there are things we don't yet understand the explanation for, and some of this may be in that area. But until someone manages to reproduce at least a portion of it under that kind of controlled circumstances, I tend to attribute the results to more prosaic explanations.

 

[franklinstower]

I think I see where you're coming from. Those kinds of statements, however, hold equally true (meaning the experience is real to the person experiencing it) when accurate, or when a result of confirmation bias. People quite regularly cite "miraculous" results that can also be found without the intervention they suggest is the cause. This is why I say you can't really be sure (the generic "you" - you as an individual can be sure whenever your personal threshold is met) until the results are compared to a randomized control group.

I feel pretty certain there are things we don't yet understand the explanation for, and some of this may be in that area. But until someone manages to reproduce at least a portion of it under that kind of controlled circumstances, I tend to attribute the results to more prosaic explanations.

I hear you and I understand that sentiment completely. No one should be shamed for not believing someones story. The problem with reproduction is that anything that would be considered "miraculous" is just extremely rare. I have never met any person who could do something powerful enough "on demand" to partake in a study that could prove it.

For over 25 years I have been in connection with a number of groups of people who are exceptionally dedicated to spiritual growth. Only a few of these people were martial artists FYI. Many of these people meditate 3 or 4 hours a day on top of spending the bulk of the rest of this time engaged in spiritual practices and pursuits. These kinds of people tend to be more likely to do or experience something that would "prove" to an outside observer there is chi or the Tao or God.

Among the hundreds of people I have been exposed to and spoken with over the years only a very small percentage have ever seen or done something like that-- and even then it is a "one off" kind of thing, or else something that might happen to them a few times in a whole life time. It is just extremely rare. There are good reasons for this that make sense IME.

Then you have to take into account the profound and prolific subjective experiences that are had, in a logical order and that lead to profound transformation of people and lives. These follow a somewhat predictable and logical pattern and there are maps that describe all of it in detail and how to navigate these stages.

In the christian tradition there have sometimes been 7 stages of spiritual growth defined and spoken of. In the last 25 years I have only met maybe 4-5 people who have access to or are permanently beyond the 4th stage. I have met a lot more who can "sometimes and rarely" get into these higher stages but have nothing remotely close to permanent access.

In almost very single case where something extremely miraculous happens it has been when the person doing it was accidentally able to be in a very high place like 6th or 7th stage--- and that just happened to coincide with them being with a person who was deathly ill or had some other verifiable illness that could be cured.

I witnessed two of these that happened in a hospital where a total cure was performed in the hospital room.

Some of us have witnessed these kinds of things and we know. No one can be expected to believe any of this based on some random persons story on the net. I share these things because there are people who know or strongly suspect this kind of thing is real and who need to hear it confirmed from the outside to find the inspiration to dedicate their lives to it. I do this knowing I will be mocked for it by some.

 

[drop bear]

A lot of it is a visualization - a way of tricking yourself into using the right relaxed extension. I teach "ki" techniques to students, and explain that they're just mental tricks that cause us to use better structure and muscle organization. Why do we use them when we know it's not really an energy thing? Because the mental trick still works, and works faster (in the learning process) for most folks.

There is this thing called sports science. That creates real provable and repeatable improvements.

Rather than anecdotes.

 

[thanson02]

I hear you and I understand that sentiment completely. No one should be shamed for not believing someones story. The problem with reproduction is that anything that would be considered "miraculous" is just extremely rare. I have never met any person who could do something powerful enough "on demand" to partake in a study that could prove it.

For over 25 years I have been in connection with a number of groups of people who are exceptionally dedicated to spiritual growth. Only a few of these people were martial artists FYI. Many of these people meditate 3 or 4 hours a day on top of spending the bulk of the rest of this time engaged in spiritual practices and pursuits. These kinds of people tend to be more likely to do or experience something that would "prove" to an outside observer there is chi or the Tao or God.

Among the hundreds of people I have been exposed to and spoken with over the years only a very small percentage have ever seen or done something like that-- and even then it is a "one off" kind of thing, or else something that might happen to them a few times in a whole life time. It is just extremely rare. There are good reasons for this that make sense IME.

Then you have to take into account the profound and prolific subjective experiences that are had, in a logical order and that lead to profound transformation of people and lives. These follow a somewhat predictable and logical pattern and there are maps that describe all of it in detail and how to navigate these stages.

In the christian tradition there have sometimes been 7 stages of spiritual growth defined and spoken of. In the last 25 years I have only met maybe 4-5 people who have access to or are permanently beyond the 4th stage. I have met a lot more who can "sometimes and rarely" get into these higher stages but have nothing remotely close to permanent access.

In almost very single case where something extremely miraculous happens it has been when the person doing it was accidentally able to be in a very high place like 6th or 7th stage--- and that just happened to coincide with them being with a person who was deathly ill or had some other verifiable illness that could be cured.

I witnessed two of these that happened in a hospital where a total cure was performed in the hospital room.

Some of us have witnessed these kinds of things and we know. No one can be expected to believe any of this based on some random persons story on the net. I share these things because there are people who know or strongly suspect this kind of thing is real and who need to hear it confirmed from the outside to find the inspiration to dedicate their lives to it. I do this knowing I will be mocked for it by some.

I will be honest, I don't like mixing religion with martial arts. If others want to do that, that is their choice.

Now, I am not saying that these groups don't have their place, I just don't think it is the Dojang. There are some traditional elements in MA that are tied into the religious traditions of Asia, but I think it is better to take those in their cultural context and I don't try to mix them with western cultural perspectives of what we consider the "supernatural". From what I have seen, none of the Asian religious traditions are monotheistic and the paradigm differences between monotheism and polytheism/animism are so different that trying the blend the two together causes a lot of misrepresentations.

 

[franklinstower]

I will be honest, I don't like mixing religion with martial arts. If others want to do that, that is their choice.

Now, I am not saying that these groups don't have their place, I just don't think it is the Dojang. There are some traditional elements in MA that are tied into the religious traditions of Asia, but I think it is better to take those in their cultural context and I don't try to mix them with western cultural perspectives of what we consider the "supernatural". From what I have seen, none of the Asian religious traditions are monotheistic and the paradigm differences between monotheism and polytheism/animism are so different that trying the blend the two together causes a lot of misrepresentations.

I THINK I see what you mean and pretty much agree with it. Especially if there were some agenda of conversion going on-- even if it were very subtle. I would be especially bothered if it were just about beliefs and not tied to any real mystical tradition. I would not train somewhere like that either.

However my example of the seven stages are universal and not shared in a dojo. I used the Christian system as an example to describe a universal phenomenon-- anyone at all who has been exposed the the 3 orbs, 5 orbs, or 7 chakras is going to see much of what they have been taught or experienced in the 7 stages from Teresa of Avila. This is because they are describing experience with the Tao and that experience will always be more similar than different and have more in common than not.

It is astounding how similar much of it is and how especially in the levels and categories of experience with spirituality you can see we are talking about the same thing. Different religions stop and describe at different points along the continuum but it is certainly the same continuum being experienced and described-- even if there are multiple methods for attaining it-- and levels of penetration into it.

 

[thanson02]

I THINK I see what you mean and pretty much agree with it. Especially if there were some agenda of conversion going on-- even if it were very subtle. I would be especially bothered if it were just about beliefs and not tied to any real mystical tradition. I would not train somewhere like that either.

However my example of the seven stages are universal and not shared in a dojo. I used the Christian system as an example to describe a universal phenomenon-- anyone at all who has been exposed the the 3 orbs, 5 orbs, or 7 chakras is going to see much of what they have been taught or experienced in the 7 stages from Teresa of Avila. This is because they are describing experience with the Tao and that experience will always be more similar than different and have more in common than not.

It is astounding how similar much of it is and how especially in the levels and categories of experience with spirituality you can see we are talking about the same thing. Different religions stop and describe at different points along the continuum but it is certainly the same continuum being experienced and described-- even if there are multiple methods for attaining it-- and levels of penetration into it.

So, I usually don't go to deep into the religious discussions and I usually keep it surface-level, mainly because when I open up about this particular topic, it usually goes down some weird rabbit holes. But I think in the case of this particular discussion if I don't, I think we're just going to keep running around in circles.

In a nutshell, I'm a polytheist. I don't believe in the existence of one all-powerful entity or cosmic consciousness. I believe that there are many things out there that we choose to honor and hold to high esteem (worship) and given the nature of humanity, I think our tendency naturally goes towards polytheism anyways. I understand from where you're coming from you don't see that what you're bringing to the table is bringing religion to the table, and if the stuff your bringing up is being kept out of the Dojang, great.

But what you brought up in the way you brought it up has a lot of underlying assumptions that go along with it and I'm not sure that you are in a spot where you can see those things clearly. From where I'm standing, it's just the area that I'd rather just not have to interact with when I'm working on my training.

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[Gerry Seymour]

There is this thing called sports science. That creates real provable and repeatable improvements.

Rather than anecdotes.

Um. Did you have a point about something I said there?

 

[franklinstower]

So, I usually don't go to deep into the religious discussions and I usually keep it surface-level, mainly because when I open up about this particular topic, it usually goes down some weird rabbit holes. But I think in the case of this particular discussion if I don't, I think we're just going to keep running around in circles.

In a nutshell, I'm a polytheist. I don't believe in the existence of one all-powerful entity or cosmic consciousness. I believe that there are many things out there that we choose to honor and hold to high esteem (worship) and given the nature of humanity, I think our tendency naturally goes towards polytheism anyways. I understand from where you're coming from you don't see that what you're bringing to the table is bringing religion to the table, and if the stuff your bringing up is being kept out of the Dojang, great.

But what you brought up in the way you brought it up has a lot of underlying assumptions that go along with it and I'm not sure that you are in a spot where you can see those things clearly. From where I'm standing, it's just the area that I'd rather just not have to interact with when I'm working on my training.

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You underestimate me. I've been on the path a long time and have come to be comfortable with certain languages and approaches. I see these as just that-- language and approaches trying to describe something that is difficult to express.

The point is to get in touch with whatever it really is and if polytheism is working or works I cant really see a problem with that at all. My first ten years was heavily influenced by shamanism and Hinduism.

I see all of those different energies (beings) as emanating or expressing one source. It would seem to make little difference if you or someone else doesnt see it all as emanating from one source.

The only potencial loss I could.see is the loss of non-duality which is the highest state known in most of the major religions but even Hinduism and Buddhism have a lot of gods and demons to and they are in no way missing non-duality.

I think it is great you are a polytheistic man.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just a bit of a somewhat off topic/on topic thing

I just feel the need to say this, since we are basically talking CMA and spirituality and religion seems to have appeared

Shén ( 神 ) gets misused/mistranslated by many outside of China when the hear it. It gets translated as Spirit, which automatically leads most westerners to "Spirituality" and that is not what it means. To make things more confusing to the West is the direct translation of Shén ( 神 ) is God. But the Chinese are big on root characters in a category of words, as well as associations as they saw it in antiquity; for example cow is (牛) Niú and you will find that in anything that remotely resembles a cow. Buffalo is (水牛) Shuǐniú. Everything alcohol with have (酒) Jiǔ (liqueur) in it as well; Beer (啤酒) Píjiǔ, Whisky(威士忌酒) Wēishìjì jiǔ, Wine (葡萄酒) Pútáojiǔ


In the case of Shén ( 神 ) you see it in all sorts of places, that do not necessarily make sense to us, in the west, as a category oo association, but it really have little to do with God or Spirituality. In TCMA you see it used much the same as you see it use in Traditional Chinese Medicine as (精神) Jīngshén (Spirit) or (心神) Xīnshén (Mind). Neither of which have anything to do with Spirituality or God.

Jīngshén; spirit, vitality, the essence of, consciousness, mind
Xīnshén: Mind

So the Shén being used, and misused/misunderstood in CMA has much more to do with "Thinking" and/or "Mind" that God or Spirituality.

OK, sorry for the interruption.....But I just had to post that based on the direction this thread has gone

 

[franklinstower]

Just a bit of a somewhat off topic/on topic thing

I just feel the need to say this, since we are basically talking CMA and spirituality and religion seems to have appeared

Shén ( 神 ) gets misused/mistranslated by many outside of China when the hear it. It gets translated as Spirit, which automatically leads most westerners to "Spirituality" and that is not what it means. To make things more confusing to the West is the direct translation of Shén ( 神 ) is God. But the Chinese are big on root characters in a category of words, as well as associations as they saw it in antiquity; for example cow is (牛) Niú and you will find that in anything that remotely resembles a cow. Buffalo is (水牛) Shuǐniú. Everything alcohol with have (酒) Jiǔ (liqueur) in it as well; Beer (啤酒) Píjiǔ, Whisky(威士忌酒) Wēishìjì jiǔ, Wine (葡萄酒) Pútáojiǔ


In the case of Shén ( 神 ) you see it in all sorts of places, that do not necessarily make sense to us, in the west, as a category oo association, but it really have little to do with God or Spirituality. In TCMA you see it used much the same as you see it use in Traditional Chinese Medicine as (精神) Jīngshén (Spirit) or (心神) Xīnshén (Mind). Neither of which have anything to do with Spirituality or God.

Jīngshén; spirit, vitality, the essence of, consciousness, mind
Xīnshén: Mind

So the Shén being used, and misused/misunderstood in CMA has much more to do with "Thinking" and/or "Mind" that God or Spirituality.

OK, sorry for the interruption.....But I just had to post that based on the direction this thread has gone

No one here is translating those particulnar words though. I haven't seen them come up but maybe Im missing a post here of there. I not concern myself with particular words or language because the discussion is more broad than that.

I cant see that it makes any difference unless you are trying to make the case that the Chinese were all atheists and never meant anything supernatural by anything they said.

You probably dont mean that though but I have heard this attempt spoken by some people in the past and it could only be described as an agenda that forces an interpretation that is not necessary

 

[franklinstower]

I'm thinking now about my shaolin in and Tai Chi and Xing Yi teacher who was from Taiwan. He did not make a big deal about internal energy as far as speaking about it but more than once someone I knew would have a breakthrough and suddenly feel it very intensely and sometimes surprisingly, and my teacher could tell immediately and would come over and talk to that person about it.

There was/is a whole body of teaching in that tradition for dealing with and recognizing those energies and apparently for spotting someone else who does too.

No way did he think of all of this as physics. No way

 

[Xue Sheng]

No one here is translating those particulnar words though. I haven't seen them come up but maybe Im missing a post here of there. I not concern myself with particular words or language because the discussion is more broad than that.

I cant see that it makes any difference unless you are trying to make the case that the Chinese were all atheists and never meant anything supernatural by anything they said.

You probably dont mean that though but I have heard this attempt spoken by some people in the past and it could only be described as an agenda that forces an interpretation that is not necessary

Agenda!? You are way off with that as to what, and why, I was posting. And how you got to that out of a simple translation post I will never know

 

[franklinstower]

Agenda!? You are way off with that as to what, and why, I was posting. And how you got to that out of a simple translation post I will never know

I tried to say so towards the end of.the post. I'm sure you are not saying that. Sorry for any assumption or misunderstanding friend.

Also I did not imply you were doing so out of agenda. I was talking about an idea and not you at all man.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I tried to say so towards the end of.the post. I'm sure you are not saying that. Sorry for any assumption or misunderstanding friend.

Also I did not imply you were doing so out of agenda. I was talking about an idea and not you at all man.

Thanks, but there was no idea, just straight translation of the Chinese to English combined with over 25 years experience in Chinese Martial Arts, some study in Chinese history and culture and over 12 years of posting on MT.

Posted similar on the terms "Kung Fu" and "Wushu" before. Kung fu means hard work, Wushu means martial arts, it was a misunderstanding by the west that got wushu to be called Kung Fu. And a few other things on Chinese terminology as well.

Did not mean to offend and I apologize if I did

 

[franklinstower]

Thanks, but there was no idea, just straight translation of the Chinese to English combined with over 25 years experience in Chinese Martial Arts, some study in Chinese history and culture and over 12 years of posting on MT.

Posted similar on the terms "Kung Fu" and "Wushu" before. Kung fu means hard work, Wushu means martial arts, it was a misunderstanding by the west that got wushu to be called Kung Fu. And a few other things on Chinese terminology as well.

Did not mean to offend and I apologize if I did

You did not offend. It was my mistake.

 

[thanson02]

You underestimate me. I've been on the path a long time and have come to be comfortable with certain languages and approaches. I see these as just that-- language and approaches trying to describe something that is difficult to express.

The point is to get in touch with whatever it really is and if polytheism is working or works I cant really see a problem with that at all. My first ten years was heavily influenced by shamanism and Hinduism.

I see all of those different energies (beings) as emanating or expressing one source. It would seem to make little difference if you or someone else doesnt see it all as emanating from one source.

The only potencial loss I could.see is the loss of non-duality which is the highest state known in most of the major religions but even Hinduism and Buddhism have a lot of gods and demons to and they are in no way missing non-duality.

I think it is great you are a polytheistic man.

Okay, then I completely misunderstood where you were coming from.

That is on me.

And thank you.....

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