Breathe Through Your Hands

[thanson02]

Just a bit of a somewhat off topic/on topic thing

I just feel the need to say this, since we are basically talking CMA and spirituality and religion seems to have appeared

Shén ( 神 ) gets misused/mistranslated by many outside of China when the hear it. It gets translated as Spirit, which automatically leads most westerners to "Spirituality" and that is not what it means. To make things more confusing to the West is the direct translation of Shén ( 神 ) is God. But the Chinese are big on root characters in a category of words, as well as associations as they saw it in antiquity; for example cow is (牛) Niú and you will find that in anything that remotely resembles a cow. Buffalo is (水牛) Shuǐniú. Everything alcohol with have (酒) Jiǔ (liqueur) in it as well; Beer (啤酒) Píjiǔ, Whisky(威士忌酒) Wēishìjì jiǔ, Wine (葡萄酒) Pútáojiǔ


In the case of Shén ( 神 ) you see it in all sorts of places, that do not necessarily make sense to us, in the west, as a category oo association, but it really have little to do with God or Spirituality. In TCMA you see it used much the same as you see it use in Traditional Chinese Medicine as (精神) Jīngshén (Spirit) or (心神) Xīnshén (Mind). Neither of which have anything to do with Spirituality or God.

Jīngshén; spirit, vitality, the essence of, consciousness, mind
Xīnshén: Mind

So the Shén being used, and misused/misunderstood in CMA has much more to do with "Thinking" and/or "Mind" that God or Spirituality.

OK, sorry for the interruption.....But I just had to post that based on the direction this thread has gone

That is consistent with what I have seen as well. That is why I said I prefer to talk about these things in their cultural context.

If I was to translate it in Western talk:
*Spirit=mind/mental capabilities
*Mind/monkey mind=Emotional state


Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[Buka]

I will be honest, I don't like mixing religion with martial arts. If others want to do that, that is their choice.

Now, I am not saying that these groups don't have their place, I just don't think it is the Dojang. There are some traditional elements in MA that are tied into the religious traditions of Asia, but I think it is better to take those in their cultural context and I don't try to mix them with western cultural perspectives of what we consider the "supernatural". From what I have seen, none of the Asian religious traditions are monotheistic and the paradigm differences between monotheism and polytheism/animism are so different that trying the blend the two together causes a lot of misrepresentations.

I don't like mixing them, either. Otherwise people tend to post things like this old post of mine.....

So back when I was a green belt, I was outside doing some push ups in Golgotha when Christ walked by with that big old cross on his back. I said, "Yo, JC, what up, my man?"

"He said, going up the hill to get crucified by these a-holes, just to save all your butts."

I said, "Whoa, bro, you good with that?"

He said "no worries, my son, be back in a few days. And keep your back straight on the push ups, kay?"

 

[drop bear]

Um. Did you have a point about something I said there?

Yes.

 

[_Simon_]

why would you conclude I'm not interested in it, I find the delusion of " religion" and people beliving their tapping into t mystical powers through prayer or meditation fascinating

science isn't believing any old tosh, the open mindedness, is to critically analyse t the data to see where that gets you,the data in this instance ito a guy claiming " miracles" which he won't describe, as soon as you declare something a miracle, you've closed your mind to any other explanation but super natural . any sane person would take that with a large pinch of salt and be more than cynical about any other claim he makes.

... you've already called them a "delusion", so your interest is only interested in your perception and take of it.

And saying something is a miracle doesn't mean saying ah it's supernatural and mystical/magical, but simply that it is beyond conventional logical/linear conclusions. Beyond the narrow limitations of the mind.

There's more to life than hard proof and logic bro! The miracle ( ) of life and existence is pretty stunning and full of awe.

If you are genuinely interested, the William James @franklintowers mentioned book is a fantastic one, and also "Power vs Force" by David Hawkins is an awesome one that alot of people find helpful in bridging the gap between science and spiritual realities.

 

[thanson02]

I don't like mixing them, either. Otherwise people tend to post things like this old post of mine.....

So back when I was a green belt, I was outside doing some push ups in Golgotha when Christ walked by with that big old cross on his back. I said, "Yo, JC, what up, my man?"

"He said, going up the hill to get crucified by these a-holes, just to save all your butts."

I said, "Whoa, bro, you good with that?"

He said "no worries, my son, be back in a few days. And keep your back straight on the push ups, kay?"

No lie, that hurts to read.............

 

[_Simon_]

Great post man!! I think exploring internal energy through healing modalities is the easier and more beneficial way anyway. Spending years trying to develop Chi so that you can punch someone with it is a dubious motivation IMO.

However if the exploration is for spiritual/psychological transformation and healing others it seems the doors open quite wide and the path is easier somehow.

I also really like what you said about this stuff not being supernatural (not sure you used that term) chi is natural, it is just what is. Its just that in this day and age we have become so skeptical that unless a machine can measure it many people wont admit the possibility.

One of my teachers in shamanism said when we went through the enlightenment and the birth of fantastically useful logical thought and reason and then we noticed that some of our old ideas where not reasonable, were superstitious and some were downright dangerous. He said that we gave up "ALL" of what we had for this new way of thinking and in the process some people threw out the baby with the bathwater.


What style of martial arts do you practice man? Also do your teachers or teacher also think the way you do or did you only find this in alternative healing practices?

Yeah that's the thing, there's far too much out there that's just a bit of a distraction, alot of funky energy manipulation, exploration of dimensions etc etc.

When it's used for spiritual work and true healing it serves such an incredible purpose. Of course to each their own, but I know for years I fell into the trap of the 'oohs' and 'ahhs', the glamour of the new age stuff, and alot is detrimental if you're still naive and immature, which I was. I think that's why alot of people dismiss it, alot of it they associate with wackiness, cults and making money off naive people, which absolutely has happened, no question. That's why we need guidance from others in order to hone our ability to know what's of integrity, and what's not.

Ah nice, the shamanic stuff is pretty cool, never been drawn to that path but have seen some intense and healing stuff in that with other people haha.

Yeah absolutely, the birth of logic and reason was absolutely a tremendous tool, and the advances have been mindblowing. But when it gets seen as one's reality and how to view life instead of just a handy tool to use, it can then dominate your entire perception and it can really reinforce basic errors. A big error being artificially separating yourself from reality and God as something 'other than' or separate to it. Even the language structure we use reinforces it hey, "I" am "going" to the "shops". Haha, but seen as just a convenience of communication and it doesn't wreak havoc.

Am currently in a trialling period, trying out different martial arts to see what clicks! I came from training in Kyokushin karate for about 8 years, but after much real honesty with myself felt I needed to move on. Was a big realisation for me, and it aligned with a phase in my life of realising I didn't need to be so darn hard on myself and put such pressure on myself, smashing myself into the ground constantly. No longer need to prove myself nor prove that I'm "strong" (my motivation was coming from a place of insecurity and of feeling weak, so trying to prove I'm strong just reinforced the idea that I was inherently weak, defective and incapable).

So still searching at the moment! My teachers didn't really align with my orientation in life, but it all honestly did serve a purpose and I did learn a heck of a lot from it.

But yeah the healing modalities I've explored have been really helpful, from lot of kinesiology, pranic healing etc, all just revealed stuff I was still holding onto that I could now process and let go of. Being into this stuff for years it gets easier to cotton on to what's helpful and what is absolutely just nonsense. But that being said, everything can serve a purpose depending on where someone is in their journey. But to me there is absolutely stuff that has no integrity that should be avoided like the plague! Haha..

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes.

Okay, then can you restate it?

 

[jobo]

... you've already called them a "delusion", so your interest is only interested in your perception and take of it.

And saying something is a miracle doesn't mean saying ah it's supernatural and mystical/magical, but simply that it is beyond conventional logical/linear conclusions. Beyond the narrow limitations of the mind.

There's more to life than hard proof and logic bro! The miracle ( ) of life and existence is pretty stunning and full of awe.

If you are genuinely interested, the William James @franklintowers mentioned book is a fantastic one, and also "Power vs Force" by David Hawkins is an awesome one that alot of people find helpful in bridging the gap between science and spiritual realities.

well no, quantum mechanics is weird beyond belief, there's very serious questions being asked by science about the whole nature of the reality that our narrow minds perceive. perhaps our universe is just a simulation inside a computer, which it's self, is part of a a computer simulation repeat to infinity, perhaps our universe is a 3 d projection of a two d universe, perhaps nothing exists at all beyond out perception of it and objects just pop in and out of existence dependent on if it's being observed or not. M ( string )theory need 11 dimensions to work, so the existence of multiple dimensions beyond out perception is main stream science.
these are all scientific hypothesis that are being serious considered and researched. science and logic are not c.losed minded acceptance of only the phySical things we can currently measure or touch or observe.

the difference is that these will not be accepted as true unless or until someone can get a wall to disappear or can use the uncertainty principal to teleport or the quantum eraser to change tIme. but there is a collective acceptance that our "reality" is not " real"e, but that doesn't of course prove god or any of the other spiritual nonsense.just that we are currently incapable of perceiving what is actually real

it's not a failure of imagination that's the difference between science and spirituality, its that science requires evidence or at least logic and the other just requires gulable people

 

[franklinstower]

Yeah that's the thing, there's far too much out there that's just a bit of a distraction, alot of funky energy manipulation, exploration of dimensions etc etc.

When it's used for spiritual work and true healing it serves such an incredible purpose. Of course to each their own, but I know for years I fell into the trap of the 'oohs' and 'ahhs', the glamour of the new age stuff, and alot is detrimental if you're still naive and immature, which I was. I think that's why alot of people dismiss it, alot of it they associate with wackiness, cults and making money off naive people, which absolutely has happened, no question. That's why we need guidance from others in order to hone our ability to know what's of integrity, and what's not.

Ah nice, the shamanic stuff is pretty cool, never been drawn to that path but have seen some intense and healing stuff in that with other people haha.

Yeah absolutely, the birth of logic and reason was absolutely a tremendous tool, and the advances have been mindblowing. But when it gets seen as one's reality and how to view life instead of just a handy tool to use, it can then dominate your entire perception and it can really reinforce basic errors. A big error being artificially separating yourself from reality and God as something 'other than' or separate to it. Even the language structure we use reinforces it hey, "I" am "going" to the "shops". Haha, but seen as just a convenience of communication and it doesn't wreak havoc.

Am currently in a trialling period, trying out different martial arts to see what clicks! I came from training in Kyokushin karate for about 8 years, but after much real honesty with myself felt I needed to move on. Was a big realisation for me, and it aligned with a phase in my life of realising I didn't need to be so darn hard on myself and put such pressure on myself, smashing myself into the ground constantly. No longer need to prove myself nor prove that I'm "strong" (my motivation was coming from a place of insecurity and of feeling weak, so trying to prove I'm strong just reinforced the idea that I was inherently weak, defective and incapable).

So still searching at the moment! My teachers didn't really align with my orientation in life, but it all honestly did serve a purpose and I did learn a heck of a lot from it.

But yeah the healing modalities I've explored have been really helpful, from lot of kinesiology, pranic healing etc, all just revealed stuff I was still holding onto that I could now process and let go of. Being into this stuff for years it gets easier to cotton on to what's helpful and what is absolutely just nonsense. But that being said, everything can serve a purpose depending on where someone is in their journey. But to me there is absolutely stuff that has no integrity that should be avoided like the plague! Haha..

I am with you on the New Age. There is good in it but it is by and for beginners and the focus on the Ohh and Ahh, the glitter and glam of it is very high.

Real solid systems that have produced enlightened people over time are the only place to find solid instruction. I think the New Age serves a purpose but in the end it causes as much harm as good.

In the very beginning of my path I was in the New Age and I was always having cosmic type experiences. My Tai Chi teacher knew this and did not approve but did not say much. One day while doing Tai Chi I had a pretty intense breakthrough spiritually. My whole awareness felt like it sunk about 12 feet down, this changed my entire state of mind and I was fully present in my body and deeply grounded.


I said "Master Lu something really powerful happened to me today" and he said "what you feel really light" with a hint of sarcasm. That was when I found out how he felt about the new age movement and the effect it was having on my spirituality. He thought the down experience I had just had was really good though and would lead to something authentic.


If you are leaving Karate and looking for something that is more spiritually oriented I think Tai Chi is probably the best thing out there. My Tai Chi is not real Tai Chi-- its just slow motion kung fu that someone from our lineage created so the system had access to deep and profound moving meditation.

Tai Chi taken from this viewpoint is very very powerful and leads to some pretty incredible spirituality. So does standing in San Ti though from Xing Yi which is my preference but it still does not seem as good as the very slow motion meditation from Tai Chi.

One thing my master and some students did regularly was 3 hour Tai chi. They would take the form that takes an hour to do and slow it down to 3 hours-- all for the purpose of entering into profound meditative states with your body involved. This seems to infuse the body with the energy accessed through meditation. It is very powerful.

 

[Buka]

No lie, that hurts to read.............

Sincerest apologies for any discomfort, it was not my intention. I'd put a bowing emogi here if I knew how.

 

[Gweilo]

I don't like mixing them, either. Otherwise people tend to post things like this old post of mine.....

So back when I was a green belt, I was outside doing some push ups in Golgotha when Christ walked by with that big old cross on his back. I said, "Yo, JC, what up, my man?"



"He said, going up the hill to get crucified by these a-holes, just to save all your butts."

I said, "Whoa, bro, you good with that?"

He said "no worries, my son, be back in a few days. And keep your back straight on the push ups, kay?"

Hmm, I never knew JC was Hawiian, unless of course you was a green belt, back in the day in Isreal/palestine, anyhow, you ain't doing bad for a pretty much 2020 year old

 

[drop bear]

Okay, then can you restate it?

Anecdotal evidence leads to false conclusions.

And a very good example is historical medicine.

 

[Buka]

Well, yeah. Golgotha was the kind of the Hawaiian section of Israel.

I have some etymological proof. Consider...in Hawaii nobody says "thank you". They say Mahalo, the Hawaiian term for thank you.
Everywhere you go that's what you'll hear, literally dozens of mahalos a day.

If we rearrange the words in "mahalos", like we used to do back in Golgotha, you get "a shalom"

Ahh, but I sense some scepticism on your face.



But I assure you it's almost gospel.

Almost.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Anecdotal evidence leads to false conclusions.

And a very good example is historical medicine.

I'm trying to figure what the relation is to my comment about using ki as shorthand for proper mechanics.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't like mixing them, either. Otherwise people tend to post things like this old post of mine.....

So back when I was a green belt, I was outside doing some push ups in Golgotha when Christ walked by with that big old cross on his back. I said, "Yo, JC, what up, my man?"

"He said, going up the hill to get crucified by these a-holes, just to save all your butts."

I said, "Whoa, bro, you good with that?"

He said "no worries, my son, be back in a few days. And keep your back straight on the push ups, kay?"

That was you

 

[drop bear]

I'm trying to figure what the relation is to my comment about using ki as shorthand for proper mechanics.

Cool. If you work it out or get bored trying give me a yell.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Cool. If you work it out or get bored trying give me a yell.

Can you just clue me in?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Can you just clue me in?

Im gonna guess either that how you use ki is anecdotal, and not what people refer to generally as ki, or that you use ki as shorthand for these techniques, despite there being sport science that has verified ways the techniques/tricks work and names for it. Those are just guesses though, if im wrong than im just as lost as you

 

[_Simon_]

well no, quantum mechanics is weird beyond belief, there's very serious questions being asked by science about the whole nature of the reality that our narrow minds perceive. perhaps our universe is just a simulation inside a computer, which it's self, is part of a a computer simulation repeat to infinity, perhaps our universe is a 3 d projection of a two d universe, perhaps nothing exists at all beyond out perception of it and objects just pop in and out of existence dependent on if it's being observed or not. M ( string )theory need 11 dimensions to work, so the existence of multiple dimensions beyond out perception is main stream science.
these are all scientific hypothesis that are being serious considered and researched. science and logic are not c.losed minded acceptance of only the phySical things we can currently measure or touch or observe.

Yep absolutely, quantum mechanics is at the forefront of this, as they're discovering things that just baffle and defy logic. And they're even realising the role that consciousness plays in all this. The error to me lies in applying logic and proof systemology onto things that it doesn't and cannot apply to. And there are many who even though seeing that consciousness/subjectivity is the thing that needs serious consideration, many still deny it in favour of keeping things objective. Hawkins talks a fair bit about quantum mechanics in the book I mentioned, and explains how pivotal the discoveries have been for sure. I didn't say science is close minded, I said that applying standards you'd use to measure the linear are not appropriate to the nonlinear. They are different paradigms, different contexts.

the difference is that these will not be accepted as true unless or until someone can get a wall to disappear or can use the uncertainty principal to teleport or the quantum eraser to change tIme. but there is a collective acceptance that our "reality" is not " real"e, but that doesn't of course prove god or any of the other spiritual nonsense.just that we are currently incapable of perceiving what is actually real

it's not a failure of imagination that's the difference between science and spirituality, its that science requires evidence or at least logic and the other just requires gulable people

And that's why many spiritual seekers have long left behind trying to "prove" these things to people, because it's entirely unnecessary and irrelevant. If you're truly motivated to seek that will lead you into it, there's actually no need to prove spiritual realities to those who aren't interested. Truth stands on it's own merit and power. If you have the genuine spark then following that will lead you. Usually the very insecure need to defensively prove to others.

You're right in that ordinary perception is not seeing reality but just surface level appearance. That's why subjectivity is then explored, your own reality and existence and the enquiry into what this awareness actually is. It's a shift of reference point from perception (beliefs, linear labelling) to letting go of conceptualization into something more primary, a priori and intimate.

But your last line just tells me there's nowhere to go from there. Good luck bro.

 

[_Simon_]

I am with you on the New Age. There is good in it but it is by and for beginners and the focus on the Ohh and Ahh, the glitter and glam of it is very high.

Real solid systems that have produced enlightened people over time are the only place to find solid instruction. I think the New Age serves a purpose but in the end it causes as much harm as good.

In the very beginning of my path I was in the New Age and I was always having cosmic type experiences. My Tai Chi teacher knew this and did not approve but did not say much. One day while doing Tai Chi I had a pretty intense breakthrough spiritually. My whole awareness felt like it sunk about 12 feet down, this changed my entire state of mind and I was fully present in my body and deeply grounded.


I said "Master Lu something really powerful happened to me today" and he said "what you feel really light" with a hint of sarcasm. That was when I found out how he felt about the new age movement and the effect it was having on my spirituality. He thought the down experience I had just had was really good though and would lead to something authentic.


If you are leaving Karate and looking for something that is more spiritually oriented I think Tai Chi is probably the best thing out there. My Tai Chi is not real Tai Chi-- its just slow motion kung fu that someone from our lineage created so the system had access to deep and profound moving meditation.

Tai Chi taken from this viewpoint is very very powerful and leads to some pretty incredible spirituality. So does standing in San Ti though from Xing Yi which is my preference but it still does not seem as good as the very slow motion meditation from Tai Chi.

One thing my master and some students did regularly was 3 hour Tai chi. They would take the form that takes an hour to do and slow it down to 3 hours-- all for the purpose of entering into profound meditative states with your body involved. This seems to infuse the body with the energy accessed through meditation. It is very powerful.

Yeah I know what you mean! There is definite benefit to some of the genuine new age stuff, but the issue is the infinite exploration and glamorisation of spirituality. True spiritual work is not glamorous and bells and whistles. And if you can't even master or understand this realm/consciousness, what business do you have exploring other astral dimensions haha. And the inherent dangers if you're gullible and naive (which I think is what jobo may be confusing with genuine spiritual inquiry), as you think you're communicating with something of integrity on the "other side", but from what I've gathered they've been at this for millennia, and know how to deceive. You open yourself up to energies that are dedicated to the opposite of truth and love, and that only seek dominion and control over you.

And it leads to just "experience-chasing", which itself is an addiction and a distraction. What you need is within you at all times and isn't given by an "other". Gurus point the way but they're signposts in the end towards your own Self.

And yeah for sure I couldn't count on all my fingers the intense spiritual experiences I've had, and I've come to realise that they're just nice reminders, rather than something to chase. It doesn't mean you're doing the right things as such, but it just reaffirms to you the path and trajectory. And that you're being looked after. They're nice reminders that truth is confirmed within yourself and can't be found in reading the best book, having the best teacher etc.

Ah awesome thanks so much for that, Taichi wasn't actually on my list for some reason but I may just give it go! The martial art I go with doesn't necessarily have to be totally spiritual in orientation, as I feel the most powerfully spiritual one for me will be the one that I really truly connect with on the heart level, no matter if it looks spiritual or not.