Breathe Through Your Hands

[franklinstower]

Ive had three serious kungfu teachers. Two of them meant to breath out of your hands in the sense that energy would flow out of your hands and out of them if you did.

Both of them could transfer energy for healing and presumably harming.

The other teacher thought of it more in terms of a way to focus physical movement only.

 

[jobo]

About 15 years ago a giant chimpanzee species (around 300 pounds) was discovered by scientists on the continent of Africa. Until that moment they had only existed in the mythological minds of locals who spoke of them. They just popped into existence when a scientist saw them.

are you really putting forward an argument that as a previously unknown species was " discovered " that supernatural miracles must take place ! if not what is the point your making? there are many thousands possibly millions of new species out there. there discovery will not fundamentallychange the laws of the universI and mean that secret energy is a thing

 

[franklinstower]

are you really putting forward an argument that as a previously unknown species was " discovered " that supernatural miracles must take place ! if not what is the point your making? there are many thousands possibly millions of new species out there. there discovery will not fundamentallychange the laws of the universI and mean that secret energy is a thing

No. I was making a joke with another poster.

 

[jobo]

No. I was making a joke with another poster.

so no point at all ?

 

[Xue Sheng]

A less TMA way of looking at it is breath timing. I could see someone saying "breathe througuh/with your hands" to mean that your breaths should be in line with your punches. So you are breathing through your hand by exhaling as your hand exhales (punches out), and inhale as your hand inhales (comes back in).

not exactly, and in the words of one of my xingyiquan sifus, not at all. but that is part of it, IMO. it is not just timing punches, it is movement of the entire body

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

not exactly, and in the words of one of my xingyiquan sifus, not at all. but that is part of it, IMO. it is not just timing punches, it is movement of the entire body

Are you saying to not breathe with the timing of the punches, or are you saying in TMA the phrase means more than that?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

it's just martial arts woo, there a lot of it about, even people who are clearly intelligent to know a bit about biology, and anatomy come out with the most amazing level of nonsense, its like their convinced they have a super power,,
what biomechanical mechanism does it use ???? non at all its complete nonsence

A lot of it is a visualization - a way of tricking yourself into using the right relaxed extension. I teach "ki" techniques to students, and explain that they're just mental tricks that cause us to use better structure and muscle organization. Why do we use them when we know it's not really an energy thing? Because the mental trick still works, and works faster (in the learning process) for most folks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If only this way true, scientific research is based on funding and or private backing and profit potential, and unfortunately, internal arts are low on profitability compared to pharmaceutical reseach.

Much of science is not actually based on profit potential, but the funding point is spot-on. Good research - even simple stuff - costs money. Some research just doesn't get funded, so either doesn't happen or gets done in a way that doesn't have a large enough sample size to be reliable. And too often the replication studies are not done, so conclusions drawn from the original research can't be properly challenged by competing data.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would NOT need to prove


Providing anecdotal stories on the net only works out when you are dealing with people who are genuinely curious and interested and with a person that a trusting relationship has been developed with.

Not sure what "money" has to do with this conversation or people who "claim" supernatural powers. I am not talking about either of these.

In the book "Varieties of Religious Experience" William James does a fair job of treating a multitude of transformational experiences attained through spiritual discipline and the often radical changes these produce in the entirety of a person. If you really are interested in the topic I think there may be no better place to start. It is easy to get access to the book online for free as it is a classic of western literature.

It is fair to say though that the changes that take place, while often occurring in differing orders, are quite predictable even if you are the type of teacher, as I am, that does not tell the prospective student what to expect at all. I like to leave it completely vague and up in the air so as to have the least influence on how it manifests as possible. From the approach I have learned the methods or techniques of a a system are more ways to cooperate with the changes that happen rather than create them. The changes are deep and profound and natural provided certain conditions are met.

Of course while very difficult to explain, these changes in themselves do not prove the Tao exists or that God exists-- only that certain practices lead to certain transformations that are in some measure universal to the human experience.

A respectful challenge of your thought process on this, if you're open to it.

With statements like these, my first thought is "I wonder how much is confirmation bias?" You've said earlier that certain changes are guaranteed. But are they? Does everyone undergo them? And do they occur at a significantly greater rate than with some other pursuit that includes mindfulness, self-examination, and development of patience?

These are questions that can't be answered without finding some control group to compare to. Otherwise, we're back to the issue of confirmation bias.

 

[Gweilo]

I teach "ki" techniques to students, and explain that they're just mental tricks that cause us to use better structure and muscle organization.

Why do you call it Ki techniques, why not muscle manipulation techniques?
I don't think we can dismiss the internal energy point in its entirety, I don't believe you can stand 5ft from an opponent, thrust your hand out, and cause your opponent to double up in pain and fall over, but I do think you are able to move tension and power from the torso through to the hands, wether this is a trick or energy, how would you go about decifering the evidence, I once trained with a guy called Ryo Onishi, who claims he can send all of his energy to his hands, it was very convincing, when I was the volunteer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why do you call it Ki techniques, why not muscle manipulation techniques?
I don't think we can dismiss the internal energy point in its entirety, I don't believe you can stand 5ft from an opponent, thrust your hand out, and cause your opponent to double up in pain and fall over, but I do think you are able to move tension and power from the torso through to the hands, wether this is a trick or energy, how would you go about decifering the evidence, I once trained with a guy called Ryo Onishi, who claims he can send all of his energy to his hands, it was very convincing, when I was the volunteer.

It's the term we've always used, and meanings change over time. I still tell students to "extend your ki", and they know that means to use that relaxed extension we practiced in those exercises. These terms become shortcuts: "extend your ki" is quicker than "relax everything except the extension muscles, stretch forward, and keep your weight balanced behind it".

Until someone finds a way to measure that energy (rather than the effect, which could be more easily explained as the effect of good use of tension and relaxation), my default position is that it probably doesn't exist. I won't be shocked if we discover there's a form of energy we haven't detected before since this has happened in the past, but I'll be a bit surprised, since current models seem to account for pretty much all of the energy involved (what comes in, to what goes out).

 

[_Simon_]

Even the special powers "BS" is not BS. It is just rare. I have been witness to a number of miraculous events, the explanation of which requires subtle energies that are at present outside of the reach of scientific discernment and investigation. These things do exist but the manifestation of them, in a way that seems to break our present understanding of the world, is very rare. Rare enough that setting up a lab and telling someone to "do it" is probably not going to happen and if it does it is extremely unlikely to be repeatable.

I don't say these things to convince a devout skeptic or even someone who is firmly agnostic. I say these things and take the heat from people because there are some people who know or strongly suspect this area of life is real and who need to hear that others know or strongly suspect it too in order to build their whole practice on it.

It takes a lot to train in such a way as to increase ones awareness of these subtle energies. A lot. Everything must change if that is the goal. The motivation must change in each and every moment of practice (much easier said than done), a sensitivity to what attitudes and approaches increase awareness of these energies over time must be gained and then the person must be wiling to switch from attitudes and approaches that wont lead to an awareness of the Tao to ones that do, and sometimes this change runs very contrary to a persons preferences. It can be quite difficult.

Even though benefit from this approach is guaranteed there is absolutely no guarantee IMO that supernatural powers will result from the practice but that does happen sometimes. What is guaranteed is that the person will change into a better person with much more range and a much higher quality state of being that they can take and share with life. What is guaranteed is transformation, over and over again into a better and better human being. A person will grow in humility, softness, femininity, receptivity, grace, fluidity, strength, willpower, fierceness, masculinity, activity etc.

These changes come from noticing how the Tao is manifesting itself in the person and being receptive to it and allowing of it--day in and day out. This is a lot of work in some ways and self will and agenda have to be surrendered and a new attitude of flowing (easier said than done because it often goes against our preferences) is grown into.

In my experience none of this can happen in any serious way unless the primary motivation for practice, in real time and consistently, is for this to happen. It has to be first and I think a good teacher is extremely helpful too.

Very well said mate, and that correlates with my experience and what I've come to understand over time.

I admire your patience too, wowza!

Ahhh @jobo.... I'm pretty unsure why you've come into this thread. It's clearly not what you're about or interested in, but not sure if you're just trying to disprove it. Doesn't even seem you're open to the possibility of it. I mean, even the foundation of the scientific method is curiosity and openmindedness, or else we can't evolve or learn. Being open to it is pretty crucial to investigating. You're saying you need proof first before you are open to it, but to me a certain degree of rigidness needs letting go of before exploring. Not a complete blind naivety, but a little flexibility.

I understand the skepticism, especially about the money thing and hocuspocus being sold to gullible people, but that's not all there is to all this stuff.

And to me it isn't about supernatural powers as such, that's not really a possibility. If something isn't natural it doesn't really exist, so alot of this stuff is simply what's natural, but occurring at levels deeper than physical. But I guess if it means beyond what is normally experienced that makes sense.

Like franklintower said, this stuff takes a genuine openness and curiosity, but of course it takes a bit of a leap to even consider the possibility that there are things beyond the physical. And not only that, things beyond the traditionally "proveable". Proof is only limited to the mind and concrete objectiveness, whereas alot of energetic stuff is only experiential subjectively.

Things on deeper levels of reality aren't proveable, as they can't be taken within the context of the linear. When the nonlinear is being dealt with it's confirmed via being subjectively verifiable. The mind and logic only deals with concrete linear things that have been conmpartmentalised and labelled, and subsequently artificially separated from other things. When it does this that's when it tries to confirm its own perception through it's own belief systems.

And actually it's only within subjectivity that an idea of proof or any sort of objectivity exists hehe. The physical or gross stuff is literally at the very tail end of what's manifested, so much happens prior to it before there could even be a possibility of physicality.

I don't care either way nor am I trying to convince you, just giving my take and experience on it. Not having explored much ki stuff as such but having explored multiple different healing modalities involving different energies, chakras etc, not to mention my own inner spiritual work for many years, I know it's been incredibly powerful and transformative for me. And trust me I used to be pretty darn skeptical haha.

Proof is such an irrelevant thing in all this, as the mind is so incredibly limited and can't fathom the nonlinear and unprovable. It takes a leap and a genuine interest and motivation, and that's all good if that's not there, nothing wrong with that.

 

[jobo]

Very well said mate, and that correlates with my experience and what I've come to understand over time.

I admire your patience too, wowza!

Ahhh @jobo.... I'm pretty unsure why you've come into this thread. It's clearly not what you're about or interested in, but not sure if you're just trying to disprove it. Doesn't even seem you're open to the possibility of it. I mean, even the foundation of the scientific method is curiosity and openmindedness, or else we can't evolve or learn. Being open to it is pretty crucial to investigating. You're saying you need proof first before you are open to it, but to me a certain degree of rigidness needs letting go of before exploring. Not a complete blind naivety, but a little flexibility.

I understand the skepticism, especially about the money thing and hocuspocus being sold to gullible people, but that's not all there is to all this stuff.

And to me it isn't about supernatural powers as such, that's not really a possibility. If something isn't natural it doesn't really exist, so alot of this stuff is simply what's natural, but occurring at levels deeper than physical. But I guess if it means beyond what is normally experienced that makes sense.

Like franklintower said, this stuff takes a genuine openness and curiosity, but of course it takes a bit of a leap to even consider the possibility that there are things beyond the physical. And not only that, things beyond the traditionally "proveable". Proof is only limited to the mind and concrete objectiveness, whereas alot of energetic stuff is only experiential subjectively.

Things on deeper levels of reality aren't proveable, as they can't be taken within the context of the linear. When the nonlinear is being dealt with it's confirmed via being subjectively verifiable. The mind and logic only deals with concrete linear things that have been conmpartmentalised and labelled, and subsequently artificially separated from other things. When it does this that's when it tries to confirm its own perception through it's own belief systems.

And actually it's only within subjectivity that an idea of proof or any sort of objectivity exists hehe. The physical or gross stuff is literally at the very tail end of what's manifested, so much happens prior to it before there could even be a possibility of physicality.

I don't care either way nor am I trying to convince you, just giving my take and experience on it. Not having explored much ki stuff as such but having explored multiple different healing modalities involving different energies, chakras etc, not to mention my own inner spiritual work for many years, I know it's been incredibly powerful and transformative for me. And trust me I used to be pretty darn skeptical haha.

Proof is such an irrelevant thing in all this, as the mind is so incredibly limited and can't fathom the nonlinear and unprovable. It takes a leap and a genuine interest and motivation, and that's all good if that's not there, nothing wrong with that.

why would you conclude I'm not interested in it, I find the delusion of " religion" and people beliving their tapping into t mystical powers through prayer or meditation fascinating

science isn't believing any old tosh, the open mindedness, is to critically analyse t the data to see where that gets you,the data in this instance ito a guy claiming " miracles" which he won't describe, as soon as you declare something a miracle, you've closed your mind to any other explanation but super natural . any sane person would take that with a large pinch of salt and be more than cynical about any other claim he makes.

 

[jobo]

A lot of it is a visualization - a way of tricking yourself into using the right relaxed extension. I teach "ki" techniques to students, and explain that they're just mental tricks that cause us to use better structure and muscle organization. Why do we use them when we know it's not really an energy thing? Because the mental trick still works, and works faster (in the learning process) for most folks.

we have had this conversation before, I believe in chi, as a simple people seeking to explain, the human phyci and nervous system, before people had much comprehensive of either and in many respect the eastern view was decades a head of western science. but now sports psychology and physiology has caught up and things like meditation, visualisation, mind muscle connection et al are main steam.

it's only magic in respect that the potential of our bodies if we control our emotions and nervous system are a enormous and the abilities of them that do are well outside the scope of those that don't and that can indeed appear magical, if you lack understanding of the mechanisms involved

 

[Xue Sheng]

Are you saying to not breathe with the timing of the punches, or are you saying in TMA the phrase means more than that?

Phrase means more than that. However I had a xingyi shifu that was against timing breathing with punches and felt you should be able to strike, with power, no matter inhale or exhale.

 

[franklinstower]

A respectful challenge of your thought process on this, if you're open to it.

With statements like these, my first thought is "I wonder how much is confirmation bias?" You've said earlier that certain changes are guaranteed. But are they? Does everyone undergo them? And do they occur at a significantly greater rate than with some other pursuit that includes mindfulness, self-examination, and development of patience?

These are questions that can't be answered without finding some control group to compare to. Otherwise, we're back to the issue of confirmation bias.

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, no one would think it was confirmation bias were they to have seen and experienced the things I have in this realm of Kung Fu and internal energy and meditation. There is just no way whatsoever, and the more I converse with other martial artists, the more I feel myself to have been very lucky in who I met and what I was taught.

For me there is no doubt whatsoever that there are "energies" available to us that are not known or labeled by science yet. It is a matter of fact and experience for me and the sheer range of that experience, and the variety of it, excludes any other possibility. I don't think that any reasonable person with the same experience set would feel any differently.

I know what frauds are. I have met fraudulent teachers both in marital arts and in the meditation world. I've met and known scammers and opportunist and I have also met real normal stable people for whom these realities are a working part of their lives. I have been trained by these people and am very grateful for that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Science can't be wrong.

The geocentric universe, ulcers are caused by stress, the immovable continent theory, a static universe, lightning doesn't strike the same place twice, don't go swimming thirty minutes after eating, vaccines can cause autism, Y2K.

And I'm still waiting for them darn killer bees.

Well I was on Atlantis the other day talking with Nessy, Big Foot, Yeren and the Yeti and they say science CAN be wrong

 

[franklinstower]

Very well said mate, and that correlates with my experience and what I've come to understand over time.

I admire your patience too, wowza!

Ahhh @jobo.... I'm pretty unsure why you've come into this thread. It's clearly not what you're about or interested in, but not sure if you're just trying to disprove it. Doesn't even seem you're open to the possibility of it. I mean, even the foundation of the scientific method is curiosity and openmindedness, or else we can't evolve or learn. Being open to it is pretty crucial to investigating. You're saying you need proof first before you are open to it, but to me a certain degree of rigidness needs letting go of before exploring. Not a complete blind naivety, but a little flexibility.

I understand the skepticism, especially about the money thing and hocuspocus being sold to gullible people, but that's not all there is to all this stuff.

And to me it isn't about supernatural powers as such, that's not really a possibility. If something isn't natural it doesn't really exist, so alot of this stuff is simply what's natural, but occurring at levels deeper than physical. But I guess if it means beyond what is normally experienced that makes sense.

Like franklintower said, this stuff takes a genuine openness and curiosity, but of course it takes a bit of a leap to even consider the possibility that there are things beyond the physical. And not only that, things beyond the traditionally "proveable". Proof is only limited to the mind and concrete objectiveness, whereas alot of energetic stuff is only experiential subjectively.

Things on deeper levels of reality aren't proveable, as they can't be taken within the context of the linear. When the nonlinear is being dealt with it's confirmed via being subjectively verifiable. The mind and logic only deals with concrete linear things that have been conmpartmentalised and labelled, and subsequently artificially separated from other things. When it does this that's when it tries to confirm its own perception through it's own belief systems.

And actually it's only within subjectivity that an idea of proof or any sort of objectivity exists hehe. The physical or gross stuff is literally at the very tail end of what's manifested, so much happens prior to it before there could even be a possibility of physicality.

I don't care either way nor am I trying to convince you, just giving my take and experience on it. Not having explored much ki stuff as such but having explored multiple different healing modalities involving different energies, chakras etc, not to mention my own inner spiritual work for many years, I know it's been incredibly powerful and transformative for me. And trust me I used to be pretty darn skeptical haha.

Proof is such an irrelevant thing in all this, as the mind is so incredibly limited and can't fathom the nonlinear and unprovable. It takes a leap and a genuine interest and motivation, and that's all good if that's not there, nothing wrong with that.

Great post man!! I think exploring internal energy through healing modalities is the easier and more beneficial way anyway. Spending years trying to develop Chi so that you can punch someone with it is a dubious motivation IMO.

However if the exploration is for spiritual/psychological transformation and healing others it seems the doors open quite wide and the path is easier somehow.

I also really like what you said about this stuff not being supernatural (not sure you used that term) chi is natural, it is just what is. Its just that in this day and age we have become so skeptical that unless a machine can measure it many people wont admit the possibility.

One of my teachers in shamanism said when we went through the enlightenment and the birth of fantastically useful logical thought and reason and then we noticed that some of our old ideas where not reasonable, were superstitious and some were downright dangerous. He said that we gave up "ALL" of what we had for this new way of thinking and in the process some people threw out the baby with the bathwater.


What style of martial arts do you practice man? Also do your teachers or teacher also think the way you do or did you only find this in alternative healing practices?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Phrase means more than that. However I had a xingyi shifu that was against timing breathing with punches and felt you should be able to strike, with power, no matter inhale or exhale.

Okay. Like i said, was just a non-TMA explanation, that might make more sense to people.

Im also of the mind that you shouldnt inhale/exhale with strikes though. I know people who dncourage it, but i feel like it telegraphs a bit, especially with feints, and its also just better to learn to breathe normally as you fight

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Okay. Like i said, was just a non-TMA explanation, that might make more sense to people.

Im also of the mind that you shouldnt inhale/exhale with strikes though. I know people who dncourage it, but i feel like it telegraphs a bit, especially with feints, and its also just better to learn to breathe normally as you fight

@franklinstower that may be the quickest ive ever had soomeone 'vote' on one of my posts. Im not entirely convinced i hit send before i got your alert