bluewaveschool

[dancingalone]

I guess Sado is another word for karate?

 

[puunui]

I guess Sado is another word for karate?

I guess so. I know Kuk Sool Won refers to "Sado Moo Sool" as "Tribal Martial Arts". My Korean born students and I translated the Modern History book, and we discussed that word, and decided to leave the korean version in there.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Not when GM Son was Chung Do Kwan Jang, because the Oh Do Kwan and Chung Do Kwan were almost considered the same thing.

GM Son tells us what he found objectionable from his perspective in that June 15, 1959 newspaper ad:

*

NAM Tae Hi asked me to give a dan certificate to 29th Infantry Division commander CHOI
Hong Hi, who had some experience in martial art (Sado), so we could use his military authority to spread the Chung Do Kwan. To contribute to Taekwondo's development, I gave an Honorary 4th Dan certificate signed by myself, SON Duk Sung, to CHOI Hong Hi in front of the 3rd Army commander in 1955.

In 1957, Choi insisted that I give him a 6th Dan and sent a certificate he prepared in my name for me to sign. Because Choi and I were sworn brothers, and because my younger brother had a 6th Dan, he wanted one also. I tore up the certificate he sent to me without signing it. General Choi was also sending instructors (Sabums) to Vietnam, but he did that on his own authority and chose the number of instructors to send without consulting me. He also lied and stated that he had 24 years experience in martial arts practice (Sa Do Soo Ryun) and spread propaganda about himself. Therefore, it was unavoidable that I had to cancel his Honorary 4th Dan certificate and Honorary Kwan Jang position.

*

I am aware of this part of the ad and that it goes on to expell GMs Uhm and Nam. Also that shorlty after the ad GM Son was gone from the CDK and Uhm was the next preisdent going on to greater glories and GM Nam remains a resoected member.

I was not aware that the ad apparently had negative info about GM Lee.

The fact that the expelled person (GM Uhm) replaced the guy who expelled him (GM Son) who was seemingly (But no where do I know if it's so stated) then expelled certainly leads to certain conclusions. Is there a translation anywhere about what the ad said about GM Lee?

So, despite what it said, it certainly seems that other motivations were at work. Of course this is purely speculation on my part.)

 

[bluewaveschool]

So how did GM Son come to leave the CDK and it be taken over by someone obviously not of his own choosing, but someone he expelled?

 

[bluewaveschool]

What in the ad was negative about GM Lee?

 

[puunui]

The fact that the expelled person (GM Uhm) replaced the guy who expelled him (GM Son) who was seemingly (But no where do I know if it's so stated) then expelled certainly leads to certain conclusions.

I explained this in another post. GM Uhm replaced GM Son as Chung Do Kwan Jang on June 4, 1959, and the ad that GM Son took out was on June 15, 1959, 11 days later. Therefore, GM Son didn't have any authority to expel anyone or revoke anyone's honorary dan or honorary kwan jang position. He was just venting.

Is there a translation anywhere about what the ad said about GM Lee?

It's right in the ad, but it helps to understand Korean culture and history.

"After several months, I came back to Seoul and found out LEE Won Kuk and his family all ran away to Japan. I thought they were living in Pusan."

"The Korean traitors who ran away to Japan were a matter of regret for me."

In the book "Korean Patterns" author Paul Crane explains:

"President Syngman Rhee had violent emotional hatred towards Japan, but he did not revoke the Japanese system when his new Republic of Korea government assumed office in 1948. He used the powers of his office to educate young Koreans in a reflex reaction of hatred for anything Japanese. Older Koreans did not openly oppose this approach, but many stated privately that they did not have the same feelings towards the Japanese as did the President."

"Those who were educated in Japanese schools and universities remain proud of their degrees and still play a vital role in educational and governmental circles. Japanese education is still more highly respected by many Koreans than is American education. Koreans are quick to notice and to attempt to follow the Japanese example in social and business trends."

So there is another piece of the puzzle, which may replace an erroneous or only half true piece that many people have in their Taekwondo jigsaw. It is a very useful piece, and will help explain many things that happened in the 40's through 70's.

 

[puunui]

So how did GM Son come to leave the CDK and it be taken over by someone obviously not of his own choosing, but someone he expelled?

It's right in the newspaper ad. GM Uhm, GM Hyun and others had contact with GM LEE Won Kuk in Japan, and they convinced him to remove GM Son as Kwan Jang and replace him with GM Uhm. Everyone wanted GM Uhm to be the Kwan Jang after GM YOO Ung Joong went to North Korea, but he was too young and there were older members who objected, like GM Son and GM KANG Suh Chong. So they made GM Son, who was there from I believe 1944, as Kwan Jang. But GM Son was similar to General Choi, so there were many disagreements about GM Son's leadership from the very beginning. It took about seven years, but eventually GM Son was removed.

GM LEE Won Kuk said that he removed GM Son because he violated the Chung Do Kwan membership oath. Even when GM Lee first accepted GM Son as a student, many people objected because he was a kangpae (gangster) and the others felt things would turn out badly if he was allowed to train. But GM Lee said that he felt that he could turn GM Son around with the discipline and training of the martial arts, so he accepted him. GM Lee would later regret that decision and considers GM Son to be a betrayer to him personally as well as to the Chung Do Kwan membership.

Once GM Uhm took over the leadership of the Chung Do Kwan, all of the problems that existed under GM Son disappeared and GM Uhm is still the Kwan Jang of the Chung Do Kwan, 51 years later.

I tried to build a relationship with GM Son by also sending him Christmas cards (actually christmas calendars which I used to make). He accepted the first one but in subsequent years, he would refuse and would have them sent back to me. I don't know how many years I kept sending those calendars to him, but every year he would refuse to accept them. I think I still have those returned envelopes from him.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Wasn't GM Son's several months away spent in a prison, at the bidding of ROK President Rhee, along with GM Lee? I would think that GM Son would be understanding and not include GM Lee in the group of traitors. Anyone have the ability to ask GM Son?

 

[puunui]

Wasn't GM Son's several months away spent in a prison, at the bidding of ROK President Rhee, along with GM Lee? I would think that GM Son would be understanding and not include GM Lee in the group of traitors. Anyone have the ability to ask GM Son?

Yes, GM Son did spend some time being tortured along with GM Lee when GM Lee politely declined to have all members of the Chung Do Kwan join President RHEE Syngman's political party. They were tortured with electrodes to their fingertips, and other methods. So when they were finally released, GM LEE Won Kuk, his wife and two sons left Korea as fast as they could back to Japan. Soon thereafter, the Korean War broke out.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I explained this in another post. GM Uhm replaced GM Son as Chung Do Kwan Jang on June 4, 1959, and the ad that GM Son took out was on June 15, 1959, 11 days later. Therefore, GM Son didn't have any authority to expel anyone or revoke anyone's honorary dan or honorary kwan jang position. He was just venting.
...........................


.

Thanks, must have missed that post. Gives even more insight and addt'l info vis a vis his not being head of the CDK at the time.

Amazing how people who quote the ad to bash General Choi don't just leave out info vis a vis GMs Uhm and Nam but the timeline as ell.

 

[andyjeffries]

Thanks, must have missed that post. Gives even more insight and addt'l info vis a vis his not being head of the CDK at the time.

Amazing how people who quote the ad to bash General Choi don't just leave out info vis a vis GMs Uhm and Nam but the timeline as ell.

I'd argue though that if he gave the certificate (as instructor or kwan jang or whatever) then it's his right to revoke it. Also the ad is used to show that the grades Gen Choi held (except for his own self-promoted rank) were honorary.

Whether GM Son was Kwan Jang or not, in favour or not, doesn't change those particular facts.

 

[puunui]

Amazing how people who quote the ad to bash General Choi don't just leave out info vis a vis GMs Uhm and Nam but the timeline as ell.

I guess they figure it's your job to point out that stuff, if you wish to defend General Choi.

Don't forget GM HYUN Jong Myung too. He played a very pivotal role in Taekwondo's development, given the fact that he was the one who taught GM HWANG Kee the Chung Do Kwan style of GM LEE Won Kuk, and also that he was the 2nd Oh Do Kwan president after GM NAM Tae Hi for at least ten years, and that he was present at the December 19, 1954 naming meeting. On some early Tae Soo Do Chung Do Kwan certification, I saw both his name and GM Uhm's name as signators. And he also got expelled along with GM Uhm and GM Nam.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'd argue though that if he gave the certificate (as instructor or kwan jang or whatever) then it's his right to revoke it. Also the ad is used to show that the grades Gen Choi held (except for his own self-promoted rank) were honorary.

Whether GM Son was Kwan Jang or not, in favour or not, doesn't change those particular facts.

Interesting. If the President of the United states gave you a commendation in his official capacity as President, is then removed from office could he then later remove the commendation when he was no longer the president but just an ordinary citizen?

 

[Earl Weiss]

I guess they figure it's your job to point out that stuff, if you wish to defend General Choi.

Don't forget GM HYUN Jong Myung too. He played a very pivotal role in Taekwondo's development, given the fact that he was the one who taught GM HWANG Kee the Chung Do Kwan style of GM LEE Won Kuk, and also that he was the 2nd Oh Do Kwan president after GM NAM Tae Hi for at least ten years, and that he was present at the December 19, 1954 naming meeting. On some early Tae Soo Do Chung Do Kwan certification, I saw both his name and GM Uhm's name as signators. And he also got expelled along with GM Uhm and GM Nam.

Not my job, I just think people should consider the source. I figured GM Son was pissed that so any members left the CDK and went to General Choi when GM Son was Kwan Jang.

I always figured GN Sons actions were not well regarded since he was gone soon after, but now you have pointed out that he was not even Kwan Jang and was "Just venting". Others can decide about how his acts were percieved based upon where GM Son and the various "Expelleees" (if thats a word) ended up

 

[andyjeffries]

Interesting. If the President of the United states gave you a commendation in his official capacity as President, is then removed from office could he then later remove the commendation when he was no longer the president but just an ordinary citizen?

I would argue yes. If it's his signature on the paper, it's his right to publicly revoke it. You may still have the paperwork but it would be publicly known that he no longer felt you were worthy of that commendation so it is nothing more than a piece of paper.

I would say the paper is superficial prove of recognition given and that recognition can always be revoked.

 

[harlan]

I don't think that makes sense. An ordinary citizen, not vested with power/office, can't undo an official action. On the other hand, he can badmouth another all he likes once out of office. It's the difference between knowing what is in the books, and what is said behind closed doors. Lots of bad paper out there.

I would argue yes. If it's his signature on the paper, it's his right to publicly revoke it. You may still have the paperwork but it would be publicly known that he no longer felt you were worthy of that commendation so it is nothing more than a piece of paper.

I would say the paper is superficial prove of recognition given and that recognition can always be revoked.

 

[andyjeffries]

I don't think that makes sense. An ordinary citizen, not vested with power/office, can't undo an official action.

It depends how you see the action...

I would argue that a Dan promotion from GM Son is a personal thing - he considers you worthy of that dan so to prove that, on that day you were worthy he gave a signed statement to that fact - a certificate from his school (*). He issued it. So if at some point he considers you no longer worthy, then that is a fact (and he considers the previous statement, written on a certificate, to be no longer true and revoked).

* Whether he was kwan jang of the dojang and therefore authorised to make that statement or later revoke it is irrelevant, it was him giving the grade not I assume a panel so it's his decision whether you're worth or not.

I have been graded by my Grandmaster. The Kukkiwon certificate that will follow will be nice, but it's the fact that my Grandmaster considers me worthy that means a lot more (the Kukkiwon certificate is just a signed statement that at some point I was considered worthy by someone of a higher dan than me). I consider my grade to have come from him (backed with the weight of the Kukkiwon) rather than having graded under the Kukkiwon directly.

The same with Gen Choi's grade - if he went to the Chungdokwan and was graded on the floor in front of a panel of judges, then I'd say it was a Chungdokwan organisation's grade. As it was given by GM Son, then it's GM Son's business to take it away.

 

[d1jinx]

Here's what I think is funny about this Kwan stuff. I trained under a few Koreans. Most never taught us about thier Kwan affiliation, in fact was told that it didnt matter anymore. "no more Kwans, just Kukkiwon".

Anyway, when asked sometimes they would tell you what Kwan they came from, but the conversation went no further and usually ended with "not important anymore".

I dont think many feel thats its important to teach so they dont talk about it.

I did have one Korean Master one time who was proud to let us know he was Moo Duk Kwan. But past him being a ROK tkd instructor, no info on who/what where/when etc. I have no idea who he learned from other than he started at a very early age like most.

When i was stationed in Florida and Trained under GM Soon Ho Lee (95-96ish), they spoke heavily of how they founded the ATA and why. He knew my KKW curriculum very well and even corrected me a few times when I demonstated my poomsae to him. However, not once did he speak of thier beginings like which Kwan. Only that they didnt like the direction TKD was taking so they formed the ATA to preserve the ART and Tradition. I trained with them a brief time (year & half) but was very impressed by Master Lee. He taught me a bit about the "Business" side of this industry.

But back to the Kwan's. Its like my own heritage, much past my grand parents I dont know. I wonder, but for the most part, I dont care. Some people do, I dont.

Does that not validate my TKD existance because I dont know past my first GM? And since I have trained under multiple... am I a Kwan mutt?

I think this is very common within TKD because many instructors dont know and dont teach it. so it gets lost over the years.

JM2C.

 

[harlan]

(This thread on TKD politics is admittedly over my head! I know using a college degree isn't a perfect analogy, but I'm going to use it. )

If a college awarded a degree, signed off by the president, and then wanted to revoke it later, it would be problematic in that the action devalues the organization. It's been done with 'honorary' degrees, but not sure if it's ever been done with one that was earned.

If one takes back a degree, or dan grading, it either means the curriculum has been changed...and it devalues everyone's degree...or it reflects an unstable institution.

Quote: It depends how you see the action...

I would argue that a Dan promotion from GM Son is a personal thing - he considers you worthy of that dan so to prove that, on that day you were worthy he gave a signed statement to that fact - a certificate from his school (*). He issued it. So if at some point he considers you no longer worthy, then that is a fact (and he considers the previous statement, written on a certificate, to be no longer true and revoked).

 

[chrispillertkd]

Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
Interesting. If the President of the United states gave you a commendation in his official capacity as President, is then removed from office could he then later remove the commendation when he was no longer the president but just an ordinary citizen?

I would argue yes. If it's his signature on the paper, it's his right to publicly revoke it. You may still have the paperwork but it would be publicly known that he no longer felt you were worthy of that commendation so it is nothing more than a piece of paper.

I would say the paper is superficial prove of recognition given and that recognition can always be revoked.

No offense, but this is ridiculous. A person in office can act in an official capacity. When they are out of office they cannot.

Pax,

Chris