I would say double unusual considering your last name
bluewaveschool
- Thread starter puunui
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #22
I would say double unusual considering your last name
I'm the youngest too, by far.
That's nice dear.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
- Messages
- 5,322
- Reaction score
- 281
Kudos.
bluewaveschool
2nd Black Belt
How do I not know who founded our class?
1 - It's been passed down for 30 years. We never thought to ask who founded it way back in the day that we had the chance.
2 - The instructor of my instructors hated the term 'master'. It was forbidden in the dojang to refer to an instructor as 'Master'. Color belts did refer to him on the rare occasion we saw him as Mr., once we achieved Black Belt it was first name basis. We use first names, as we did with our instructors when we were coming up.
3 - I have never claimed to be a member of the CDK, nor do I have my students recite the membership oath. I have introduced them to the 5 Tenets of the ITF, because I feel those qualities are something to strive for as a martial artist.
4 - I haven't mentioned the CDK link in quite some time, as I'm still researching it. And oddly enough, my grand instructor's children were never interested in learning TKD, or he taught them at home, they were never in class with me.
1 - It's been passed down for 30 years. We never thought to ask who founded it way back in the day that we had the chance.
2 - The instructor of my instructors hated the term 'master'. It was forbidden in the dojang to refer to an instructor as 'Master'. Color belts did refer to him on the rare occasion we saw him as Mr., once we achieved Black Belt it was first name basis. We use first names, as we did with our instructors when we were coming up.
3 - I have never claimed to be a member of the CDK, nor do I have my students recite the membership oath. I have introduced them to the 5 Tenets of the ITF, because I feel those qualities are something to strive for as a martial artist.
4 - I haven't mentioned the CDK link in quite some time, as I'm still researching it. And oddly enough, my grand instructor's children were never interested in learning TKD, or he taught them at home, they were never in class with me.
- Thread Starter
- #27
That actually is quite common thing among Korean born practitioners. They know the name of their kwan jang, because the kwan jang signed their dan certificate back then, but many don't know their instructor's full name. I can't tell you how many times I have asked a Korean born instructor who their first instructor was, and they give me an answer like "Lee Sabum". When I ask what was Lee Sabum's first name, they respond "We just called him Lee Sabum or Sabumnim".
I don't like that title either. No one calls me that, and if they do, I ask them to stop, unless it is a senior or my teacher, in which case I don't tell them anything.
You are probably closer to being an Oh Do Kwan member or Kuk Mu Kwan maybe. They still have the Oh Do Kwan in Korea. I have the address, but it is probably stale by now. Most of the kwans had offices in the same building in Seoul.
- Thread Starter
- #28
That makes for some pretty old guys there.
Those seniors really like me, mainly because I am always attempting to understand the arts from their point of view, rather than my own. I think that is the major difference. As much as possible I attempt to take my own personal feelings out of the equation and sincerely try to see it from their perspective, on everything. To do that, you have to study Korean history, culture, language, the food, the relationships, the religion and values, etc. Otherwise, it will be difficult to understand their perspective.
Put another way, whenever I hear someone say "I don't care how the pioneers felt" or "That was wrong what the pioneers did" or otherwise judge harshly, from their own perspective only, a red flag gets raised in my head, because that person will find it difficult to progress to the upper levels. Or their upper levels will diluted due to their own prejudices and desires.
Learning and understanding taekwondo or any other martial art for me is like trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together, without having the advantage of knowing what the puzzle looks like before hand. When you start, your first instructor gives you a couple of pieces and no doubt gives you and incomplete view of the picture you are trying to create. This is necessary because if you concentrate on the big picture immediately, then it can be overwhelming. So you have to take in phases.
Later, your instructors stops giving you pieces and you have to go out and find the pieces for yourself. This is the stage when the picture gets distorted. Some people give up finding taekwondo pieces and instead substitute pieces from the judo or hapkido puzzle to fill in the blanks in the Taekwondo puzzle. But then you end up with a mish mash picture. Its ok if you have a particularly large hole, where you can put a small part of the judo picture inside of the framework of your taekwondo puzzle, if you have completed the framework. But there comes a point where the pieces won't fit inside the borders, and confusion sets in.
So when I hear these contrasting arguments about this or that, I can't help but think to myself that some of these people either have an incomplete puzzle without understanding what the big picture looks like, or they or their teacher have force fit puzzle pieces into their taekwondo puzzle and truly believe that their mishmash puzzle is what the taekwondo puzzle actually looks like.
To tie in another discussion I had on the karate message board, I always felt like Japanese Goju Ryu under Yamaguchi Sensei was "true" Goju Ryu, but what I have learned recently is that Japanese Goju is completely different than other purer styles in Okinawa, or even Miyagi Sensei's Goju. But if you are a Japanese Yamaguchi Goju Ryu practitioner, no doubt you were taught to believe that your style is in fact "the" style and is the pure transmission of Miyagi sensei's original style.
If that makes any sense.
Dr Park also had a close relationship GM Lee, did you know GM Park well,I considered him a friend as well as superior. I enjoyed a relationship that came from fishing flowering into a buisness and back to fishing.One thing I never was able to ask about(I mostly listened)
was his Hapkido lineage,do have any information.
Anyone who has this info may chime in, please.
- Thread Starter
- #30
No, I wouldn't say i had a close relationship at all. The first time I met him was at the 1st World University Taekwondo Championships which were held a Cal Berkeley in 1986. He was there as a referee I think, and he wanted to buy souviniers at the cal bookshop, so I took him there and he bought some sweatshirts and that sort of thing. I would see him at USTU things once in a while.
I know he made his money selling plants to the city or county. He would buy these flowering plants for one or two dollars and then sell them to the government for twenty five. He made a mint doing that, so his dojang was for pleasure only and wasn't really a money making operation.
He did tell me about his Hapkido lineage, which is different than most peoples. He isn't from the GM CHOI Yong Sul lineage, but instead studied from the other Korean born gentleman who studied in Japan. I forget his name but I can find it later. GM Park said that he was one of four graduates from that school. I wrote down the names of the four people, including GM Park's name, which was different back then. Cha Sok PARK wasn't the name he was born with.
Whoa,you are giving info here noone knows about and you say you were not close.Then you were close to someone who knew him.
You are talking about the gentleman who trained with Tekada Sensei and has proof of that training?
Also I like what you are saying in the previous post about understanding the culture food etc. of Korea to understand their systems.I spoke once about people in the US misunderstanding what the Koreans were thinking when they write about the history of TKD.We think in terms of dates but they think in terms of culture,storys and folklore.That misunderstanding makes some people think of lies rather than a diferent way of SEEING. If that makes any sense.
You are talking about the gentleman who trained with Tekada Sensei and has proof of that training?
Also I like what you are saying in the previous post about understanding the culture food etc. of Korea to understand their systems.I spoke once about people in the US misunderstanding what the Koreans were thinking when they write about the history of TKD.We think in terms of dates but they think in terms of culture,storys and folklore.That misunderstanding makes some people think of lies rather than a diferent way of SEEING. If that makes any sense.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
That is the name of the gentleman who is written in the lineage of that clan from Japan,correct?
Is it from your knowledge the instructor of Dr. Park? I wonder because the age of these two are quite far apart.
It would seem to me that Dr.Park might be a student of a student of this man.
I don't know,what do you say?
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Yes, Jang In Mok was the name of the Korean who studied Daito Ryu in Japan. I believe he received a mokuroku but don't think he was a direct student under Takeda Sokaku.
I don't know if he was Dr. Park's instructor.
Pax,
Chris
Do you know anyone who studied under him? I had thought that he was listed in the lineage papers of Tekada. If not then I wonder who?
I always wondered if these men studied at the same time as the founders of jj or were they at different times.
Ushieba studied before Kano? Would that be similar?
I always wondered if these men studied at the same time as the founders of jj or were they at different times.
Ushieba studied before Kano? Would that be similar?
bluewaveschool
2nd Black Belt
When was Kuk Mu Kwan founded?
I don't have the school founders name on my Dan cert because, since we weren't part of any org, my instructors simply never bothered to whip up something on a computer and print it out.
I don't have the school founders name on my Dan cert because, since we weren't part of any org, my instructors simply never bothered to whip up something on a computer and print it out.
- Thread Starter
- #37
He told me all of that stuff himself. The seniors I believe enjoy talking to me. I say stuff, and they get excited and want to add in information, I ask a few questions, they ask me some, and the next thing I know, I have another big piece of the puzzle.
Yes, I believe Dr. Park grew up in Taegu.
If you don't understand the culture, the language, then it is difficult to see it from their point of view.
It's like an ugly American going to England, and upon hearing the people speak, commenting that everyone in England speaks with a funny accent. That is pretty much what happens when you substitute your perspective from the perspective of the people who created the thing you are commenting on. There is no shame in attempting to understand the english language from the english people's point of view.
- Thread Starter
- #38
I want to say that when GM Son left the Chung Do Kwan in June 1959, GM KANG Suh Chong also left and founded the Kuk Mu Kwan. GM Son and GM Kang were best friends, sort of like how GM UHM Woon Kyu and GM LEE Yong Woo (founder of the Jung Do Kwan) were best friends. Other best friends from different kwans included Jidokwan's GM LEE Byung Ro (the person who is credited with developing the steps in Taekwondo competition) and Han Moo Kwan's GM LEE Kyo Yoon. Or I should say these best friends started at the same kwan and branched off to different kwan, but remained friends. Even back then Taekwondo as all one.
GM Son and GM Kang did have a falling out though, because GM Kang went with the ITF and the Chang Hon forms, which really upset GM Son. GM Son, like so many pioneers, hated General Choi.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2009
- Messages
- 3,585
- Reaction score
- 929
Do you think GM Son's feelings toward General Choi were in any way influenced by seeing some top CDK guys leaving him / thje CDK and going with General Choi?
- Thread Starter
- #40
Not when GM Son was Chung Do Kwan Jang, because the Oh Do Kwan and Chung Do Kwan were almost considered the same thing.
GM Son tells us what he found objectionable from his perspective in that June 15, 1959 newspaper ad:
*
NAM Tae Hi asked me to give a dan certificate to 29th Infantry Division commander CHOI
Hong Hi, who had some experience in martial art (Sado), so we could use his military authority to spread the Chung Do Kwan. To contribute to Taekwondo's development, I gave an Honorary 4th Dan certificate signed by myself, SON Duk Sung, to CHOI Hong Hi in front of the 3rd Army commander in 1955.
In 1957, Choi insisted that I give him a 6th Dan and sent a certificate he prepared in my name for me to sign. Because Choi and I were sworn brothers, and because my younger brother had a 6th Dan, he wanted one also. I tore up the certificate he sent to me without signing it. General Choi was also sending instructors (Sabums) to Vietnam, but he did that on his own authority and chose the number of instructors to send without consulting me. He also lied and stated that he had 24 years experience in martial arts practice (Sa Do Soo Ryun) and spread propaganda about himself. Therefore, it was unavoidable that I had to cancel his Honorary 4th Dan certificate and Honorary Kwan Jang position.
*
