Black Belt question
- Thread starter opr1945
- Start date
Darren
Purple Belt
- Max login streak
- 34 day(s)
lots of people put on airs, trying to be something there not.
- Last login streak
- 127 day(s)
- Max login streak
- 127 day(s)
- Moderator
- #43
He's implying that you would be pretending to be a blackbelt, despite not being one.
- Last login streak
- 127 day(s)
- Max login streak
- 127 day(s)
- Moderator
- #44
Okay, let's be honest for a minute. opr1945 is not a real person. He is a figment of my imagination. I was severely sleep-deprived one day and lapsed into a hallucinatory state and the next thing I knew he was just standing there. Obviously I was disappointed, since I was aiming to imagine Scarlett Johannsen. I would have banished him back to the dream realms, but as the saying goes, you can't un-thunk a glunk.
I think he was stung by my rejection, but rather than go on a violent rampage like Dr. Frankenstein's creation he chose to move to Michigan and adopt the facade of a real, corporeal, mundane human being, complete with a family and personal history. Kind of sad, given his unlimited potential as a being of pure imagination-stuff. I kind of hoped that he would become a costumed crimefighter, but instead he's just hanging out on internet forums and ordering martial arts memorabilia online.
Darren
Purple Belt
- Max login streak
- 34 day(s)
im captain of the whole universe, lso CEO of universal travels we make trip to other galaxies very cheap hey want to land on Neptune no problem, want to live on the surface of Pluto we got ya covered, heck we will even fly you and your family to the next galaxy that's just over a little like 300,000. light years away. we be there in no time. i`m also captain over the united earth grid atmospheric pressure level controls, i can leap trains,planes,cars,boats,buildings in a single bound and leap right up into the heavens up using just my hair.
OP
OP
opr194595
Master Black Belt
- Last login streak
- 5 day(s)
- Max login streak
- 54 day(s)
- Thread starter
- #46
Okay, lets see if I can figure this out? Yes, I am a blood and guts real person. Attached please find a picture, mostly me, related to another thread on this forum.
Expand to see more of my handsome face. I am real, I guess you could continue to argue the point.
The issue of if I am trying to pass myself off as something I am not, remains.
I can tell you I am not trying to claim I earned a black belt when I did not. As pointed out I plan on turning them into wall hangings as a reminder what the ultimate objective, and beyond is. It would be cheaper to just order one from China made to fit me exactly instead.
(shhhh....one of them purports to be a ninja belt. Don't say it out loud, see above posts! I will not repeat them!)
Expand to see more of my handsome face. I am real, I guess you could continue to argue the point.
The issue of if I am trying to pass myself off as something I am not, remains.
I can tell you I am not trying to claim I earned a black belt when I did not. As pointed out I plan on turning them into wall hangings as a reminder what the ultimate objective, and beyond is. It would be cheaper to just order one from China made to fit me exactly instead.
(shhhh....one of them purports to be a ninja belt. Don't say it out loud, see above posts! I will not repeat them!)
Attachments
Darren
Purple Belt
- Max login streak
- 34 day(s)
i may walk around town with my marine corp spirit saying i was part of the 1/7 marine division delta company that says i`m a Vietnam combat veteran from 1965-1970, but only only one problem i was never in the military not even for one second! i did not do nor did i go through what those guys had to go through ever! Even when my uncle give me those shirts i had a real problem with it i told him those belong in a frame on the wall, he told me to where them as he was in the unit his self, my problem was what it identified me as! the real reason i wear it is all the names of the MOH and KIA`s on the back of the shirt, ALWAYS REMEMBERED NEVER FORGOTTEN! plus he has called me a hero and a survivor, don`t know about that i just get up every morning and do the life thing.
hoshin16007
Senior Master
- Last login streak
- 3 day(s)
- Max login streak
- 10 day(s)
I dont mean to pee on anyone's parade but the main objective of a belt is to hold your pants up, or kimono top closed as the case may be. The main objective of martial arts is to build some skills and perhaps build some character. If the character your building is an Elvis like gold silk pajamas wearing dude who goes around yelling KEY-EYE, KARADE CHOP, well maybe you missed the point.
As for the belt in question,no self respecting ninja would give away his undercover secret status buy wearing and advertisement belt.
As for the belt in question,no self respecting ninja would give away his undercover secret status buy wearing and advertisement belt.
Same Trick42
Master Black Belt
- Last login streak
- 1 day(s)
- Max login streak
- 39 day(s)
Interestingly you tie your red belt kind of to the side as the masters of old time did
Gichin Funakoshi pictures - Bing
Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.
- Last login streak
- 105 day(s)
- Max login streak
- 105 day(s)
My high street of various retail outlets has a ‘Games Workshop’ selling fantasy-related games, action figures and comics. Does that make Frodo real? Should I fear Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons?
Think about it
Think about it
OP
OP
opr194595
Master Black Belt
- Last login streak
- 5 day(s)
- Max login streak
- 54 day(s)
- Thread starter
- #53
Amazon.com: The Three Great Secret Manuals of the Ninja: Bansenshukai (Mansenshukai), Shoninki, and Ninpiden: Japan’s Three Great Ninjutsu Texts in Unabridged ... (Japanese Classics in Clear English Book 6) eBook : Yasutake, Hujibayasi, Natori, Masazumi , Hattori, Hanzo Masanari, Hattori, Yoshinori: Kindle Store
Originally written in 1676 AD.
Originally written in 1676 AD.
Amazon.com: The Complete Secret Manuals of the Ninja: Shoninki and Ninpiden: The Unabridged English Translation of Two of Japan’s Three Great Ninjutsu Texts, with ... (Japanese Martial Arts Secrets Book 4) eBook : Natori, Masazumi, Hattori, Hanzo Mas
Amazon.com: The Complete Secret Manuals of the Ninja: Shoninki and Ninpiden: The Unabridged English Translation of Two of Japan’s Three Great Ninjutsu Texts, with ... (Japanese Martial Arts Secrets Book 4) eBook : Natori, Masazumi, Hattori, Hanzo Masanari, Tsushima, Shiki, Hattori, Yoshinori...
www.amazon.com
- Last login streak
- 105 day(s)
- Max login streak
- 105 day(s)
The Mahabharata was written 5000 years ago but that’s not true. The New Testament was written between, approximately 50 and 100 AD and we know that isn’t…anyway you get the gist.
- Last login streak
- 105 day(s)
- Max login streak
- 105 day(s)
Now you’re just making things up
- Last login streak
- 105 day(s)
- Max login streak
- 105 day(s)
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
- Max login streak
- 2 day(s)
Right.
Let's clear this all up before anyone gets too confused, or anyone else gets too offended, yeah?
Opr1945, good to meet you. Just an fyi, there is exactly one post in this thread that accurately translates the belt for you, and that's mine. The others are all incorrect in one way or another. Feel free to check. This isn't to play an ego card, or be arrogant, but to illustrate that, on an open forum, you will get a variety of answers, and not all of them hold the same weight.
Let's look at what we're dealing with when we talk about "ninjutsu". In a way, Gyakuto is right, but the way he's presenting here is... not helpful.
We can look at the idea of ninjutsu in a few different ways. The first is historical, the second is geographical/political, and the third is modern iterations. Let's look at historical first.
In a historical context, there have been a variety of usages of terms that we would equate today to being "ninja" or "ninjutsu", pretty much a catch-all for any engagements focused on espionage, information gathering, infiltration, sabotage etc. Not open combative engagements. This was, really, just a common feature of military action and deployment in the first case, including things like scouts (monomi, a term used in some schools for their "ninjutsu" teachings, such as Tatsumi Ryu). The basis for the application is said to have come from the text known in Japanese as Sonshi... better known as The Art Of War in English, and for it's purported lead author/originator, Sun Tzu (which transliterates as Sonshi in Japanese). This text, especially the 13th chapter, deals with the proper usage of spies, how to secure information, application of bribes, and so on. The texts you linked above, while highly problematic and historically questionable, include what is realistically a largely re-written section of this chapter.
Next, we get the geographical/political link. In the mid-16th Century, there were a number of groups, notably around the Iga and Koga regions of central Honshu, known as Ikki. These groups operated as largely self-governing regions, due to political and religious separation from the ruling groups around them. Japan, at this time, was experiencing ever-escalating violence and instability, with the outgoing Ashikaga Shogunate not able to maintain control over the various regional lords (daimyo) across Japan, leading to a number of them starting to rise up and attempt to seize control by taking over more and more domains. One of the most successful of these was Oda Nobunaga, known today as the first of the three great unifiers of Japan. As he began to consolidate power, these regions of religious separatists (one way to look at them) presented a problem, so he sent his son to clear them out. Using a range of more guerilla style tactics, the bushi (warriors) of this area managed to push Nobunaga's son back, and defeat him. Nobunaga himself then went in, outnumbering the Ikki soldiers approximately 10 to 1, and almost wiped them out. Later, Hattori Hanzo, from a surviving group, was recruited by Tokugawa Ieyasu to provide safe passage, a union that provided safety for the refugee groups, and gave Tokugawa a meaningful advantage, helping him become the new Shogun of the country. While not really referred to in any historical text as "ninja", just "bushi from Iga/Koga", this image has become a prominent one for the modern idea of a ninja being a highly skilled warrior, and having a geographical association with the lands of Iga and Koga (modern day Mie and Shiga prefectures).
Lastly, we can look at modern arts. The largest organisation that lays claim to a lineage of historical ninjutsu teachings and arts is the Bujinkan (the organisation the belt in this thread is from). The Bujinkan was created by Hatsumi Masaaki, a student of Takamatsu Toshitsugu. Takamatsu was a shihan of the Kukishin Ryu, and possibly a lineage holder of Takagi Ryu Jujutsu. After he split from the Kukishin Ryu, he asked permission to create a "Chosui-ha Kukishin Ryu Ninpo (Ninjutsu)" school from the Kuki family, who denied this request. Not long after, he began to publicly state that he was actually the lineage holder of a number of old systems, including arts related to the Iga region, being Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu, and, most famously, Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu (Ninpo Taijutsu). These arts, along with Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Gikan Ryu Koppotaijutsu, and Gyokushin Ryu Ninjutsu were then passed to Hatsumi, who used them to create his own approach to martial arts, known as Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (there is a ninth system as well, Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo, although that seems to have mysteriously appeared a few years after Takamatsu passed... hmm...).
Other than the Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu, documentation and evidence for the other 7 systems predating Takamatsu have not come to light, despite a few people (Kacem Zoughari, Sean Askew, and a couple of others) claiming to have found it (not that it has held up to scrutiny, or been publicly presented for some of the more... interesting claims). However, they do claim histories taking them back to the regions of Iga, making them historically linked with the warriors of that area, and, therefore, coming under the second grouping above. More realistically, the Kukishin Ryu used to have teachings of ninjutsu within their Dai no Hyoho (large scale strategy) teachings that were not taught after the establishment of the Tokugawa rule. Takamatsu, as a Shihan of the Kukishin Ryu in the early part of the 20th Century, had access to the Kuki archives, where such things were listed and recorded, and Takamatsu was known to have studied deeply in the archives himself, to the point of aiding by rewriting from his own notes and records some scrolls that were lost in WWII, particularly those dealing with the Amatsu Tatara body of historical and spiritual teachings. The ninjutsu teachings of Togakure Ryu are apparently almost identical to those found in the Kuki archives, and my personal belief is that this forms the basis of the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu teachings in the Bujinkan and related organisations.
The Bujinkan itself, of course, was largely popularised as "ninjutsu" due to the Togakure Ryu being the original banner under which the organisation disseminated its teachings, regardless of the school the methods came from. This is because the Togakure Ryu claims the longest list of previous headmasters, and, perhaps more importantly, was the first art that Hatsumi was given his rank in by Takamatsu. This, then, led to the modern iteration of "ninjutsu" coming to be a simple short-hand for arts that are derived from the teachings of Takamatsu, which are found in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, Toshindo, Kobudokan, Shisenkan, and more, including my own Jukuren Dojo (although my approach is notably different... but that's a conversation for another time). So, does "ninjutsu" exist? Well... that depends on your interpretation... it was never a form of combative martial teachings or a ryu-ha individually (except in one or two very rare cases that I am aware of), so, as a martial art historically? No. But there are arts that are commonly referred to as ninjutsu (as a short-hand) that are taught today, with varying levels of controversy... and most of the arts that fit this bill don't use the term much these days anyway. But, for a forum, a category of "ninjutsu" is convenient enough for us all to know what we're talking about.
My high street of various retail outlets has a ‘Games Workshop’ selling fantasy-related games, action figures and comics. Does that make Frodo real? Should I fear Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons?
Think about it
Let's clear this all up before anyone gets too confused, or anyone else gets too offended, yeah?
Opr1945, good to meet you. Just an fyi, there is exactly one post in this thread that accurately translates the belt for you, and that's mine. The others are all incorrect in one way or another. Feel free to check. This isn't to play an ego card, or be arrogant, but to illustrate that, on an open forum, you will get a variety of answers, and not all of them hold the same weight.
Let's look at what we're dealing with when we talk about "ninjutsu". In a way, Gyakuto is right, but the way he's presenting here is... not helpful.
We can look at the idea of ninjutsu in a few different ways. The first is historical, the second is geographical/political, and the third is modern iterations. Let's look at historical first.
In a historical context, there have been a variety of usages of terms that we would equate today to being "ninja" or "ninjutsu", pretty much a catch-all for any engagements focused on espionage, information gathering, infiltration, sabotage etc. Not open combative engagements. This was, really, just a common feature of military action and deployment in the first case, including things like scouts (monomi, a term used in some schools for their "ninjutsu" teachings, such as Tatsumi Ryu). The basis for the application is said to have come from the text known in Japanese as Sonshi... better known as The Art Of War in English, and for it's purported lead author/originator, Sun Tzu (which transliterates as Sonshi in Japanese). This text, especially the 13th chapter, deals with the proper usage of spies, how to secure information, application of bribes, and so on. The texts you linked above, while highly problematic and historically questionable, include what is realistically a largely re-written section of this chapter.
Next, we get the geographical/political link. In the mid-16th Century, there were a number of groups, notably around the Iga and Koga regions of central Honshu, known as Ikki. These groups operated as largely self-governing regions, due to political and religious separation from the ruling groups around them. Japan, at this time, was experiencing ever-escalating violence and instability, with the outgoing Ashikaga Shogunate not able to maintain control over the various regional lords (daimyo) across Japan, leading to a number of them starting to rise up and attempt to seize control by taking over more and more domains. One of the most successful of these was Oda Nobunaga, known today as the first of the three great unifiers of Japan. As he began to consolidate power, these regions of religious separatists (one way to look at them) presented a problem, so he sent his son to clear them out. Using a range of more guerilla style tactics, the bushi (warriors) of this area managed to push Nobunaga's son back, and defeat him. Nobunaga himself then went in, outnumbering the Ikki soldiers approximately 10 to 1, and almost wiped them out. Later, Hattori Hanzo, from a surviving group, was recruited by Tokugawa Ieyasu to provide safe passage, a union that provided safety for the refugee groups, and gave Tokugawa a meaningful advantage, helping him become the new Shogun of the country. While not really referred to in any historical text as "ninja", just "bushi from Iga/Koga", this image has become a prominent one for the modern idea of a ninja being a highly skilled warrior, and having a geographical association with the lands of Iga and Koga (modern day Mie and Shiga prefectures).
Lastly, we can look at modern arts. The largest organisation that lays claim to a lineage of historical ninjutsu teachings and arts is the Bujinkan (the organisation the belt in this thread is from). The Bujinkan was created by Hatsumi Masaaki, a student of Takamatsu Toshitsugu. Takamatsu was a shihan of the Kukishin Ryu, and possibly a lineage holder of Takagi Ryu Jujutsu. After he split from the Kukishin Ryu, he asked permission to create a "Chosui-ha Kukishin Ryu Ninpo (Ninjutsu)" school from the Kuki family, who denied this request. Not long after, he began to publicly state that he was actually the lineage holder of a number of old systems, including arts related to the Iga region, being Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu, and, most famously, Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu (Ninpo Taijutsu). These arts, along with Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Gikan Ryu Koppotaijutsu, and Gyokushin Ryu Ninjutsu were then passed to Hatsumi, who used them to create his own approach to martial arts, known as Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (there is a ninth system as well, Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo, although that seems to have mysteriously appeared a few years after Takamatsu passed... hmm...).
Other than the Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu, documentation and evidence for the other 7 systems predating Takamatsu have not come to light, despite a few people (Kacem Zoughari, Sean Askew, and a couple of others) claiming to have found it (not that it has held up to scrutiny, or been publicly presented for some of the more... interesting claims). However, they do claim histories taking them back to the regions of Iga, making them historically linked with the warriors of that area, and, therefore, coming under the second grouping above. More realistically, the Kukishin Ryu used to have teachings of ninjutsu within their Dai no Hyoho (large scale strategy) teachings that were not taught after the establishment of the Tokugawa rule. Takamatsu, as a Shihan of the Kukishin Ryu in the early part of the 20th Century, had access to the Kuki archives, where such things were listed and recorded, and Takamatsu was known to have studied deeply in the archives himself, to the point of aiding by rewriting from his own notes and records some scrolls that were lost in WWII, particularly those dealing with the Amatsu Tatara body of historical and spiritual teachings. The ninjutsu teachings of Togakure Ryu are apparently almost identical to those found in the Kuki archives, and my personal belief is that this forms the basis of the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu teachings in the Bujinkan and related organisations.
The Bujinkan itself, of course, was largely popularised as "ninjutsu" due to the Togakure Ryu being the original banner under which the organisation disseminated its teachings, regardless of the school the methods came from. This is because the Togakure Ryu claims the longest list of previous headmasters, and, perhaps more importantly, was the first art that Hatsumi was given his rank in by Takamatsu. This, then, led to the modern iteration of "ninjutsu" coming to be a simple short-hand for arts that are derived from the teachings of Takamatsu, which are found in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, Toshindo, Kobudokan, Shisenkan, and more, including my own Jukuren Dojo (although my approach is notably different... but that's a conversation for another time). So, does "ninjutsu" exist? Well... that depends on your interpretation... it was never a form of combative martial teachings or a ryu-ha individually (except in one or two very rare cases that I am aware of), so, as a martial art historically? No. But there are arts that are commonly referred to as ninjutsu (as a short-hand) that are taught today, with varying levels of controversy... and most of the arts that fit this bill don't use the term much these days anyway. But, for a forum, a category of "ninjutsu" is convenient enough for us all to know what we're talking about.
Similar threads
