Black Belt Definiton

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

a black belt is a white belt who never gives up

Good tea... Thank you.

 

[kuniggety]

a black belt is a white belt who never gives up

I'm no where near a black belt in BJJ but we did a drill last week where we spent a minute in each other's full guard. I paired with a white belt and I opened his guard and took side control 4 or 5 times in that minute. The result was the same with him in my guard... me breaking his posture and sweating him a few times. Anyways, he comments: "I hope to get as good as you one day." My response was just: "don't quit".

As a father of two and in the military, I know how life can get in the way. You just gotta accept the set backs and jump back into it.

 

[JR 137]

This is the dilemma of grappling / striking arts. Dr. Jigaro Kano simplified, and removed the more dangerous techniques for his Judo.

The karate of Gitchin Funakoshi was also abbreviated.

But without aliveness, or pressure testing there remains considerible doubts in the mind of many practitioners whether the will be able to actually perform under a real world fight.

Kano's judo while argued to be safer than the jujitsu arts it was derived from, still lead to injurits.

For example:
Techniques like Kani Basami have perma-crippled athletes in competition ( see Yasuhiro Yamashita v. Sumio Endo ) and were sanctioned out of use.

Bjj does have dangerous techniques, but if you don't roll, how will you learn control?

Let's argue that Vin Diesel learns how to apply the techniques, but has not learned how to control power in application..
In an event where bodyguards were absent...

He could open himself to a wrongful death, or bodily harm lawsuit, from the perp (or surviving family members) who lost, but knows someone who is good at chasing ambulances, and arguing cases.

Yes, he would probably win the lawsuit, but at a financial cost, and a loss of time, and emotional distress.

In the end, if BJJ such as this, allows itself to discard rolling, it risks facing the same criticism that other TMAs face.

That's a good way to look at it. I hadn't considered that viewpoint.

I was thinking they learn a bunch of techniques. Perhaps (and hopefully) to the point where they've got good control while using them. All's fine and good with that except one thing - they don't know how to truly set them up. They don't know when nor how to really transition from one thing to the next. No different that if you were taught non-contact boxing - taught combinations, footwork, hitting a heavy bag and speed very well, but never sparred. How would you truly know when to throw what? Regardless of the style you practice, things never go 100% as planned in a physical altercation. What separates the best from the rest and the worst is the best know what's coming, how to counter it, how to prevent it from coming in the first place, etc. You can't get that real sense of "what if" without actually getting on the mat, floor, etc. I think non-contact karate (and every other striking art) is a joke. Non-rolling grappling arts are just as much of a joke. BJJ prides itself on pressure testing, non-LARPing (if you will), and not being glorified gymnastics and/or dance. Non-rolling BJJ is no different imo. It falls under the McDojo umbrella so many of them are so quick to point out.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes you are:

No, the whole point of that incident is that Mr. Queiroz is not a BJJ black belt.

 

[TSDTexan]

That's a good way to look at it. I hadn't considered that viewpoint.

I was thinking they learn a bunch of techniques. Perhaps (and hopefully) to the point where they've got good control while using them. All's fine and good with that except one thing - they don't know how to truly set them up. They don't know when nor how to really transition from one thing to the next. No different that if you were taught non-contact boxing - taught combinations, footwork, hitting a heavy bag and speed very well, but never sparred. How would you truly know when to throw what? Regardless of the style you practice, things never go 100% as planned in a physical altercation. What separates the best from the rest and the worst is the best know what's coming, how to counter it, how to prevent it from coming in the first place, etc. You can't get that real sense of "what if" without actually getting on the mat, floor, etc. I think non-contact karate (and every other striking art) is a joke. Non-rolling grappling arts are just as much of a joke. BJJ prides itself on pressure testing, non-LARPing (if you will), and not being glorified gymnastics and/or dance. Non-rolling BJJ is no different imo. It falls under the McDojo umbrella so many of them are so quick to point out.

The "how to" of learning setups was solved in karate and other similar arts was solved by the creation of forms.

First you program muscle memory, to make it instinctive, and condition the body.

Then you learn through analysis, or the break down of what the kata is saying tactically.

Bam! You are deep drilling your setups.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What about Rigan Machado's "flow- jujitsu" where celebrities train and earn BJJ rank without actually rolling? How long will it be before it's offered to the general public and by other BJJ schools?

Rigan Machado Designs Jiu-Jitsu System without Sparring for Celebrities

Rigan has not promoted any of his no-rolling celebrity students to black belt. I think one of his celebrity students may have gotten as high as purple, but I don't know if that individual was in the no-rolling class.

Rigan gets enough criticism from the BJJ community for the program as is. If he ever promotes any of his non-rollers to black belt, he will be absolutely excoriated by the entire community including other family members.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

On further research, I see Rigan states that while he has the "flow ju jutsu" classes available for his celebrity students, they do not actually get promoted in rank unless they actually spar/roll.

 

[Headhunter]

Exactly! Lol it's kind of like how you only get good reviews in bed because your wife wants to be nice.

Real classy you are....what're you 15

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

Real classy you are....what're you 15

Even if I was 15, still tho... lol

 

[JR 137]

Rigan has not promoted any of his no-rolling celebrity students to black belt. I think one of his celebrity students may have gotten as high as purple, but I don't know if that individual was in the no-rolling class.

Rigan gets enough criticism from the BJJ community for the program as is. If he ever promotes any of his non-rollers to black belt, he will be absolutely excoriated by the entire community including other family members.

The purple belt you're referring to is most likely Ashton Kutcher. He's a purple belt under Rigan Machado. Some sources say he's a legit purple, despite arguably being promoted too quickly, other sources say he's a non-rolling guy.

This source implies he rolls...
Joe Rogan's Opinion on Ashton Kutcher's Controversial Purple Belt in Jiu-Jitsu

Others, which I can't find due to a lack of effort right now, have claimed he's a non-rolling guy. Maybe he's a minimal rolling guy?

At the end of the day, it makes zero difference in my training. I have the utmost respect for BJJ. It's a fantastic art. Having wrestled and coached for quite some time, it's not for me as I've grown a bit tired of the day to day grind of being on the mat. I'd just hate to see it become McDojo-ized.

 

[Headhunter]

Even if I was 15, still tho... lol

No I don't think you're 15 but you seem to have the mentality of a 15 year old

 

[PhotonGuy]

a black belt is a white belt who never gives up

Considering the fact that the belt might be black on the surface but is white underneath I would say that you're right. A black belt is just a white belt that's been dyed black. We're all white belts. Whatever color your belt is on the surface, its white underneath.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Ed O'Neill (Al Bundy) earned his BB after working on it 22 years under Rorion Gracie.
He never showed up on camera looking so wrecked that "makeup" could not make him camera ready.

Ed O'Neill got his BJJ black belt in 2007. It took him less than 22 years. By now he's been training for a little more than 22 years so he must've started sometime in the mid 90s. So it might've taken him 14 or 15 years to get it. If he got it under Rorion than he had to work hard for it.

 

[JR 137]

Considering the fact that the belt might be black on the surface but is white underneath I would say that you're right. A black belt is just a white belt that's been dyed black. We're all white belts. Whatever color your belt is on the surface, its white underneath.

What if what's under the outer material is also black?

 

[TSDTexan]

Ed O'Neill got his BJJ black belt in 2007. It took him less than 22 years. By now he's been training for a little more than 22 years so he must've started sometime in the mid 90s. So it might've taken him 14 or 15 years to get it. If he got it under Rorion than he had to work hard for it.

You may be right. About 14 years, to BB, but rolling for 22.

Interesting vid:
Ed O’Neill Practices Jiu-Jitsu With Billy Bush!

 

[PhotonGuy]

What if what's under the outer material is also black?

I don't know if they make belts like that.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So here is the video of the fellow who talks about how getting a black belt in BJJ really means something. Some people have disagreed with my earlier post about him well this is what he said not me so if you don't like it you can argue with him. Much of the video is about him chewing out somebody who claimed to be a BJJ black belt who wasn't, at 23:23 he talks about the difference between a BJJ black belt and a Karate black belt.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

No I don't think you're 15 but you seem to have the mentality of a 15 year old

Cool story bro...

 

[Headhunter]

Cool story bro...

Yep point proven

 

[JR 137]

I don't know if they make belts like that.

Either do I. I think I'm going to start a new business making black belts with zero white and any other color anywhere in them. Since you inspired the idea, I'll cut you in. 10%?