benefits/drawbacks of modern?

[Enson]

just want to find out eveyone's thoughts on it.

 

[heretic888]

My guess is the major drawback would be studying something with a misleading name. It starts all sorts of arguments.

 

[AnimEdge]

i guess the draw back is you cant say your studing pure traditional ninjutsu styles butthe good side is you can generaly do what you want

 

[sojobow]

My guess is the major drawback would be studying something with a misleading name. It starts all sorts of arguments.

What is misleading? Why is whatever misleading - misleading? :idunno:

 

[Enson]

My guess is the major drawback would be studying something with a misleading name. It starts all sorts of arguments.

seems like you are the one starting the arguements! :mp5: :jedi1: . you haven't been around in awhile and apparently haven't noticed the 2 sub forums. chill out man, breathe, and get along!

i would think would have to agree and say that you can't run around saying that your art is 4000 years old. and you only use traditional weapons passed down from generation to generation... then again why would you want to? i think that adaptation is essential to a thriving art form.
"its not the strongest who survive, but the ones that can adapt to their enviroment" (i read that somewhere)
peace

 

[heretic888]

What is misleading? Why is whatever misleading - misleading?

Because the name of the art you are studying is also the name of an art claimed by about 70 different ryuha in Japan 400 years ago. Yet, clearly, there is no Japanese connection or origination here.

It would be like me developing my own, independent, and even worthwhile martial art tradition... but then calling it Heretic-style Pankration. Knowing full well, of course, that it has no relationship whatsoever to the Greek martial art of the same name.

It misleads people, and starts arguments.

seems like you are the one starting the arguements!

Not really. I'm just pointing out a drawback to the systems in question, which was part of the thread topic.

you haven't been around in awhile and apparently haven't noticed the 2 sub forums. chill out man, breathe, and get along!

I have noticed everything that has been going on, and have been watching on and off the entire time. I also fail to see how the creation of a new forum changes facts.

A question was asked, an answer was given. Simple as that.

i would think would have to agree and say that you can't run around saying that your art is 4000 years old. and you only use traditional weapons passed down from generation to generation... then again why would you want to? i think that adaptation is essential to a thriving art form.

Ummm.... okay.

That's all well and good, and I certainly don't disagree with any of it. But, it doesn't change the fact that the names are misleading to many. I'm not pointing out the effectiveness of these arts as a drawback, but simply the misleading quality of their names. That's all.

Have a good one. Laterz.

 

[Enson]

what style of modern are you refering to? some of the styles here are very founded in ninjutsu concepts. others... well they can't even show a picture of their soke. so if you are talking about the names being misleading... you need to make yourself more clear that way the practicioner of that style can rebuttel.
if you don't you are just trying to start an arguement.

peace

 

[MisterMike]

I agree to use a name (like Karate, Ju Jutsu, Ninjutsu, etc.) there should be some lineage, from the country of origin to teacher to student and on down. How much, or how long you trained before forming your own style of it is another debate.


As for the real topic here, I think they are the same as traditional. It all depends on who is teaching.

 

[sojobow]

Is it ok if a neo uses the word "Ninjitsu" since traditionalist said numerous times that, in Japan, there is no such word? Its hard to find 70 year-old ryuha using the term anyway. could I use Koga Yamabushi Karuma Hachi-ryu of Ninjitsu.

Anybody know who holds the copywrite on "Ninjitsu" (or Ninjutsu for that matter)?.

sojobow

 

[Enson]

well as you know people are known for how and what they post. so if you say "ninjitsu" people already expect it from you.

like i have already stated... it doesn't really matter (if it doesn't matter to you)... at least on this side. it also could be a pronunciation (sp?) issue.

peace

 

[heretic888]

what style of modern are you refering to? some of the styles here are very founded in ninjutsu concepts. others... well they can't even show a picture of their soke. so if you are talking about the names being misleading... you need to make yourself more clear that way the practicioner of that style can rebuttel.

Fair enough.

The modern styles I specifically had in mind were the ones of very recent creation with no solid connection to the Japanese traditions whose names they "share" --- such as Dux ryu, Ashida Kim's group, Tew ryu, Saito ryu, and so forth. I don't put groups like Hayes' Toshindo style into this categorization (nor do I feel they should be classified under the modern forums to begin with). As far as I can see, Toshindo is the only style here based on authentic Japanese "ninjutsu concepts". The others are primarily Western inventions.

And, the point I was making still holds true --- the name given to the styles is misleading. It would be like calling your style a kenjutsu school when its actually based on savate.

Is it ok if a neo uses the word "Ninjitsu" since traditionalist said numerous times that, in Japan, there is no such word? Its hard to find 70 year-old ryuha using the term anyway. could I use Koga Yamabushi Karuma Hachi-ryu of Ninjitsu.

Actually, that was not what has been said at all, sojobow. Ninjitsu is indeed a Japanese word... it just means something completely different than what its claimants says it does.

Also, while being technically correct Japanese, it also doesn't make much sense. "Fruit of stealth"?? C'mon...

Anybody know who holds the copywrite on "Ninjitsu" (or Ninjutsu for that matter)?.

Nobody does. Of course, such a line of arguing really has little to do with the central critique I made --- that the name given the arts in question is misleading.

Even if somebody truly did "own" the word in question, it would still be misleading and confusing to call American hybrid styles by that name.

it also could be a pronunciation (sp?) issue.

Technically, its a transliteration issue.

Jutsu and jitsu, as I said before, refer to two different kanji in the Japanese language. They are not interchangeable.

Laterz.

 

[Genin Andrew]

Sojobow,

This is another exhausted topic, Ninjitsu with the (i) is the same as Ninjutsu with the (u) just different spelling, a few swapped letters. But the meaning remains the same. Just like mom (american spelling) means the same as mum (Australian/English) a letter has been changed to help with the accuracy of pronounciation. Spelt different, meaning reamains the same.

The term "ninjitsuist" was created by yourself or Dux, as before you i had never heard it. Correct me if i am wrong.

thanks
-andrew

 

[sojobow]

Seems that some of us utilize the word "Ninjitsu" as an adjective rather than a noun. Its like wearing the Ninja outfits. If it helps you focus in practice, by all means, wear it.

 

[Enson]

Fair enough.

The modern styles I specifically had in mind were the ones of very recent creation with no solid connection to the Japanese traditions whose names they "share" --- such as Dux ryu, Ashida Kim's group, Tew ryu, Saito ryu, and so forth. I don't put groups like Hayes' Toshindo style into this categorization (nor do I feel they should be classified under the modern forums to begin with). As far as I can see, Toshindo is the only style here based on authentic Japanese "ninjutsu concepts". The others are primarily Western inventions.

Laterz.

*sigh*
all you have done is to come here and start arguements. its because of people like yourself that this forum got split in the first place. its funny how you don't get much action on the traditional side... grass greener maybe?
are you bored over there on your side? hee hee! :lol:
rtms tew ryu ninjutsu's connection to japanese history is not relevant to this forum.(but because some who love to bring up past converstations like they never have been spoken of before... i will go on) i will admit that the only probable connection sensei tew has to togakure ryu is his training under bussey.(is that japanese enough for you?) but like i have said before and if you want to scroll up with your mouse we are in the modern forum, and indeed rtms tew ryu ninjutsu is a modern style based on ninjutsu concepts. it was founded in america (like baseball), developed here, and doesn't claim to come from japan. like toshindo was developed here.
my question to you heretic888 is how many times have i said that already? you have a search button on the top.
peace

 

[Kreth]

*sigh*
i will admit that the only probable connection sensei tew has to togakure ryu is his training under bussey.(is that japanese enough for you?)

Well, technically, Bussey never received a teaching license in Togakure ryu, or the Bujinkan for that matter.

Jeff

 

[Enson]

Well, technically, Bussey never received a teaching license in Togakure ryu, or the Bujinkan for that matter.

Jeff

okay. i said the only probable connection. the rest doesn't matter to me.

peace

 

[heretic888]

This is another exhausted topic, Ninjitsu with the (i) is the same as Ninjutsu with the (u) just different spelling, a few swapped letters. But the meaning remains the same. Just like mom (american spelling) means the same as mum (Australian/English) a letter has been changed to help with the accuracy of pronounciation. Spelt different, meaning reamains the same.

Actually, this is inaccurate. I refer you to the delineations between the "jutsu" and "jitsu" transliteratons I mentioned before.

There are other Japanese words translated into English that use the "jitsu" kanji as distinct from "jutsu". There is no reason that this "ninjitsu" should have special exceptions made for it.

all you have done is to come here and start arguements. its because of people like yourself that this forum got split in the first place. its funny how you don't get much action on the traditional side... grass greener maybe?

Actually, it because of people that passed their American hybrid styles as "ninjutsu" that the forum got split up. Of course, you could just localize it and say the thread-starter created the arguments, since drawbacks were part of the topic.

rtms tew ryu ninjutsu's connection to japanese history is not relevant to this forum.(but because some who love to bring up past converstations like they never have been spoken of before... i will go on) i will admit that the only probable connection sensei tew has to togakure ryu is his training under bussey.(is that japanese enough for you?) but like i have said before and if you want to scroll up with your mouse we are in the modern forum, and indeed rtms tew ryu ninjutsu is a modern style based on ninjutsu concepts. it was founded in america (like baseball), developed here, and doesn't claim to come from japan. like toshindo was developed here.

A false comparison, I'm afraid.

Toshindo was founded by a man who not only has a teaching license in Bujinkan Ninpo but is also a judan with over two decades in the art under his belt. Rick Tew trained for a time with Robert Bussey, someone with less than 5 years in the Bujinkan who never reached godan, never received a teaching license, and constantly attacked Hatsumi-soke's methods even when he was in the Bujinkan.

Also, how much specific training did Robert Bussey actually receive in Togakure ryu itself?? Hard to claim "ninjutsu concepts" without Togakure ryu being involved....

Besides, all of this doesn't change the simple fact that calling an American hybrid art by the name "ninjitsu" is a major problem-starter --- for just the same reasons I outlined in my first post. It may indeed be a great martial art, but the naming is a drawback.

Now excuse me while I practice my Heretic-style Pankration. *chuckle*

 

[Enson]

Besides, all of this doesn't change the simple fact that calling an American hybrid art by the name "ninjitsu" is a major problem-starter --- for just the same reasons I outlined in my first post. It may indeed be a great martial art, but the naming is a drawback.

although you opinion is strong its not always factual. its nice that you have the liberty to comment on arts/styles you really have no experience in. thats the benefit of forums!:ultracool
bussey himself says that he has is ranking in togakure ryu and bujinkan. *shucks* anyway this is from bussey's website:

He also traveled to Japan on numerous occasions, and, on his first venture, at the age of only 18, and long before the out-break of "Ninja-mania," became a licensed instructor of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu under Masaaki Hatsumi which, in 1979, established Bussey as a pioneer of Ninjutsu in America. Bussey made history by sponsoring the first open U.S. meeting with Japan-trained instructors in hopes of setting the ground work for an international fellowship. Hatsumi proposed the Bussey would "father" American Ninjutsu as the Bujinkan's top representative. Bussey rejected the idea and instead chose a less conspicuous position by teaching only a handful of people in Nebraska and side-stepping the potential for political conflicts.

Bussey was offered and politely turned down master level certification in Ninjutsu on four occasions, which would have ranked him higher than any non-Japanese master in the thousand year history of the art. In Bussey's words, "I felt it would have been unfair to both parties to accept such a position. I have absolutely no regret, because I would simply have helped spread an ancient art filled with illusions, sterile philosophies, and limitations".

 

[heretic888]

It's good that you have so much faith in one of your teacher's teachers' teachers (gee, I hope that come out right) --- but, honestly, I'm not going to continue this line of conversation since it will inevitably lead to a flame war.

Let's just say that's not the story I've heard.... then again, whadda I know??

 

[MisterMike]

How long should have Robert Bussey stayed with the Bujinkan before splitting and naming his own style of Ninjutsu?

If studying an art is a life-long endeavor, can anyone be justified in leaving and forming their own?

What are the implications for people like Ed Parker, who uses the term Kenpo? Is he wrong too?