tkdroamer
Purple Belt
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While I agree that the number convention keeps track of progression better, there are a lot of karate schools that do not follow traditional belt color convention these days.
Belt Colours
- Thread starter Gyakuto
- Start date
frank raud
Master of Arts
The man generally credited with introducing the colored belt system, M. Kawaishi, developed what became known as the Kawaishi Method of Judo because he believed that learning parts of a foreign language was too difficult for Westerners. So in his system, techniques are designated by numbers, not by descriptors. Zenpo Kaiten (forward roll) becomes breakfall #1 as an example. Throws are numbered, chokes and strangles are numbered. I've done a Kawaishi based jiu jitsu system for about 35 years now.
Right? He mentioned 8-1 but my organization has 10 kyu ranks.
And even if you have the same number of kyu ranks if one school tests every other month and one tests every quarter there’s a decent gap in time training between 4th kyus etc.
Really the ranks mean nothing either way if you’re not familiar with the school in particular.
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
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It could have been Koizumi Gunji who came up with the colored obi. There are a lot of sources out there that claim the Paris school borrowed the colors from London.
This is one of those France vs. Britain things, I don't want to step on that.
Either way, this reminds me of an old Judo riddle.
What is Jigoro Kano's Dan grade?
Somebody once taught me this as a funny way to kid around and spook uber serious judoka.
It's not so funny nowadays but back before Google...
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #65
There used to be a list of (fake) ‘Soke’ online (which I could find it as it was hilarious). There was one self-professed ‘Soke’ who devised and founded a new system but only awarded himself a 6th Dan in it because he felt he had more to develop. I had a Marshall amp who’s gain went up to 20…but I never dared to dial that up!😄
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think where belts make the most sense is when they are used to calibrate a larger community. Sports with competitive elements use belts to ensure that competition is relatively fair. If you're a beginner, you should be competing with other beginners, and so on.
Outside of that, it really doesn't matter how schools choose to rank their students. It's entirely arbitrary. Some do it better than others.
Where it really starts to become nefarious is when people use belts or other martial arts trappings to mislead consumers.
Outside of that, it really doesn't matter how schools choose to rank their students. It's entirely arbitrary. Some do it better than others.
Where it really starts to become nefarious is when people use belts or other martial arts trappings to mislead consumers.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #67
And a numerical system be unable to achieve this? 10 kyu only compete against 10th kyu for example? It would be foolish to pit a white belt against a brown belt or a 10th kyu against a 1st kyu. The level systems perform the same jobs but in systems like Wado Ryu where there are only three kyu belt colours (white = 8th and 7th kyu, green = 6th, 5th and 4th kyu and brown = 3rd, 2nd and 1st kyu) the control is far more precise. a 6th kyu against a 4th kyu might be a little unfair although they're both 'green belts'.
The coloured belt system is a marketing ploy by belt manufacturers to make vast quantities of money...trillions...and probably devised by Elon Bezos.
You're still not demonstrating where there's any real difference between using numbers, or colors. The belt, itself, is just an outward symbol to make it easy to recognise the rank. In NGA, the ranks are technically kyu, using the belts to make them visible. I suppose they could use some stripes, but that ends up being essentially the same as (and less simple than) colors as a visual cue.
Given that, whether we label a rank "3rd kyu" or "green belt" doesn't really seem to matter. The rank is still whatever that rank is. The numbers aren't inherently superior.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #69
Really? Look what I wrote above!
The level systems perform the same jobs but in systems like Wado Ryu where there are only three kyu belt colours (white = 8th and 7th kyu, green = 6th, 5th and 4th kyu and brown = 3rd, 2nd and 1st kyu) the control is far more precise. a 6th kyu against a 4th kyu might be a little unfair although they're both 'green belts'.
How do I lock a thread?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
The question isn't whether other systems could do it. It's whether other systems could do it better.
We could propose an animal named based system, where people progress as follows:
Bobcat
Wolf
Bear
Eagle... you know, this seems vaguely familiar.
Seriously, it's just a label. Where it's used to organize a competitive training model, it is much less susceptible to becoming the marketing ploy you mention. It's the intrinsic integrity of the model that protects the style from these marketing shenanigans, not the system of rank.
Conversely, where a style doesn't have some external, transparent mechanism to calibrate it, any ranking system (numeric or otherwise) is going to be prone to issues.
Which isn’t really anything about colors, except where they overlap multiple kyu ranks. The same judgment would be true in reverse. You earlier made a claim about numbers being inherently easier. You’ve still said nothing I can see that supports that claim.
As for the other nonsense, if you can’t handle the discussions, maybe stop reading the thread.
As has been said before, kyu rankings is also kinda arbitrary since every style and school has different numbers of kyu ranks.
I have 10 kyu ranks. So is 4th kyu/10 going to be fair against 4th/8? Even if testings happen with the same regularity between the two schools, one person will clearly have a noticeable amount of more time training.
I see, so might I ask what the belt colors in your style are and in what order they go in? Also, do you ever get anything such as stripes on your belt before you get your next belt?
Yes that is quite common although I've heard of some styles where its red right before black. Also, in styles where brown is right before black there are usually multiple levels within the brown belt, brown low, brown middle, and brown high. So when you first get a brown belt you're at brown low and then the next time you get promoted you're at brown middle and so forth.
Sure they can, if such techniques are ever used in real fights (and by that I mean real confrontations not sport fights.)
At least you don't need a rope.
Which such examples are few and far between.
However with my kids I do a get away drill where they have no rules, their only goal is to get away from me. I don’t wear safety gear, because I want them to have an idea how well things would work. I’ve been hit in the groin a lot, but, and poked in the eyes quite a bit as well.
None of those types of techniques have been reliable for my students in convincing me to release them. Not nearly as reliable as sport legal techniques like a punch to the nose.
I’ve never seen stripes used in NGA (except BB). We use yellow, blue, green, purple, and brown. Each takes a bit longer to reach than the one before.
tkdroamer
Purple Belt
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I believe what it means is that many of the 9 Gup/Kyu under black belt styles or systems group colors and use stripes to differentiate rank within the color. For example, it is very common to see 3rd, 2nd, & 1st Gup/Kyu red or brown belts to have one stripe (or none) two stripes, and three stipes.
That does happen in some systems, though not in all. For those within the system in question, a combination of colors and stripes isn’t inherently more difficult than using numbered kyu designations.
