'Beliefs' in martial arts.

[fangjian]

There was your problem you did not say compared to the other things.
You were only talking about one thing or so it comes across as. This comes off as authoritative.

Saying I know what Wu/Hao Taijiquan teaches and does not teach is very different than saying: I know what Wu/Hao Taijiquan teaches and does not teach compared to Aikido.

Oooohhhhh. I think I get it now. Sorry, I thought it was simply implied that I do not know Hao style or alchemy. Yes I am not an alchemist, but I know how it differs from chemistry. I am not an authority on western boxing, but I know how it differs from savate.
I'll have to look back at the posts.

If anyone can rescue this thread and bring it back to topic, that would be great.
Actually I'd be interested to know, have any of you had experience in your styles where the system seems to hold a 'belief'.

Here's one. In Bjj, I generally hear the belief '95% of fights go to the ground'

This one has always fascinated me. This may be true if you grew up watching Rickson Gracie fight ( cause his opponents might not have had a choice ), but it implies that it is a common occurrence. I think witnessed around 50 street fights. I'd say maybe 5% of them went 'to the ground'.

Anyone else have any 'beliefs' like this? Maybe things that may not agree with statistics or anything for that matter?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes. Semantics is a HUGE problem when talking with someone. Especially when contrasting ideas and it's the worst when we have only 'text' to try and communicate. Your definition of 'ki' above is ok, but I would argue that using the word 'ki' has other, I'll say, general meanings and it conveys an image of something you may not want to be conveying. i.e.

And for that very reason, I don't use the term 'ki'. Another usage of 'ki' is energy or power. Hapkido, the way of coordinated power. This, so far as I know after several years of hapkido, is primarilly a referrence to the blending with an attacker's 'power' rather than directly opposing it. Kenshin mentioned this in an earlier post regarding methods of entering in aikido, who's meaning and kanji are shared by hapkido.

I don't use the word 'ki' when describing it to English speakers because, for one, I'm speaking English, and for another, I want them to know what I am talking about.

Sometimes people have told me they believe in a god. But when talking about it further, they simply say "Oh well, when I say 'god' I mean, you know, 'the universe'. Everything that exists" My response is normally " Why didn't you just say 'the universe' then? Using the other word is confusing people when all you had to say is you believe that the universe exists"

This is one of the problems that occur when Christians talk to people of cultures with different religions; the context of words like god and spirit are not the same. Words that get translated into 'demon' don't mean demon in the western sense. And you end up with with a person arguing against viewpoints that another person not only does not hold, but also may not even understand.

'and who knows, maybe they were'

Like I said to oaktree, above. We can't 'know' anything with this 'absolute certainty'. I am too open to the possibility of e.t. life. Evidence continues to side with that possibility. But if someone makes that claim, there's no reason to simply say " Welllllll, I don't 'know for sure' soooo, I don't know if I believe him or not"

In the abducted by aliens case, I simply don't care enough to actively disbelieve. My level of active skepticism only goes so far.

Like no touch KO's, I just don't care. I'm not paying to learn how to knock someone out from a distance and for those who do... well, you may see it as a huge issue, but I do not. There is a saying about a fool and his money. There will always be fools and there will always be hucksters to bilk them. Kind of a symbiotic relationship, as fools seem to need to have something foolish to invest in.

The only reason that I ever formed a definitive opinion on the subject was because I couldn't take it seriously after Dillman's explanation as to why it didn't work on the National Geographic reporter who volunteered to be KO'ed by one of Dillman's students. The explanation had to do with how pinky toe movement could cause the flow of ki to be interrupted and thus render the technique useless. At that point, I just had to dismiss it as larping. I view all of those 'healing services' done in churches in the same light.

I do try to keep an open mind about things. If someone says that they encountered extraterrestrial life, big foot, the Loch Ness monster, and other creatures of cryptozoology hey, I'm open to the idea that it could happen. My primary obstacle to believing in such things is that people who were open to the idea have gone to great lengths to try to verify the claims made by witnesses and have come up with either nonsense or hoaxes. The amount of scrutiny that has been given to such phenomenon is such that after decades of 'sightings' of such creatures and subsequent investigations into said sightings, no credible evidence has been established. The conspiracy theories that are put forth by proponents don't help either.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Here's one. In Bjj, I generally hear the belief '95% of fights go to the ground'

This one has always fascinated me. This may be true if you grew up watching Rickson Gracie fight ( cause his opponents might not have had a choice ), but it implies that it is a common occurrence. I think witnessed around 50 street fights. I'd say maybe 5% of them went 'to the ground'.

Anyone else have any 'beliefs' like this? Maybe things that may not agree with statistics or anything for that matter?

That statistic was taken from arrest statistics compiled by (I believe) the LAPD. Within the context of aprehending suspects, 90% of the fights go to the ground. Primarilly because getting the suspect on the ground is the most efficient way to effect cuffing him. This data was used by the Gracies to market BJJ and was presented as a general axiom outside of its actual context.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not sure exactly what you're looking for or how much detail you want but:

Wu/Hao is a style of martial arts in the internal family of wushu formed, if my memory serves me, a couple hundred years ago.
Wu/Hao teaches self defense, fighting concepts and techniques. Like the other styles of Taijiquan, Taijiquan players excel at striking, qin na, and clinch wrestling.


Wu/Hao doesn't teach ground fighting (that I am aware )


Never training 'ground fighting' would be that style's weakness. However Taijiquan is known for its explosiveness in strikes and when employing qin na. So a ground fighter that tries to use his submission grappling expertise should be aware that while being on the ground with a taijiquan fighter, he should keep in mind the explosive attacks that will occur from the taijiquan fighter. Also the wu style is known for its very subtle and small movements. Different flavor of taijiquan. It makes me think of 'southeast asian kickboxing'. All different flavors with the same core concepts, principles etc.


What I want to know is:

Was this FALSE?
or just not detailed enough?

The response it fine your problem was in your original statement making it sound as if you truly knew something about it beyond passing familiarity and Wiki with Taijiquan

Wu/Hao is a combination of Chen and Yang styles of Taijiquan it stance tends to be higher than Chen and similar to Yang, it tends to be loaded with Qinna and rather good at fighting.

My flavor of Yang has a fast form that is a combination of Yang and Wu/Hao in it and just about every single posture has a Qinna application.

It has no ground fighting as you would call it and I would not call it a weakness. It does have throws and takedowns and you would be surprised at how hard it is to take a real Taiji person to the ground do to the focus on rooting and relaxation that is part of the training, not impossible, just rather difficult, I unintentionally really messed up an Akijutsu guy at a demo because I relaxed and to be honest I’m not that good. But regardless standing up or laying down the principles are the same and Qinna works fine on the ground too. You also have to realize trying to take someone to the ground may expose you to other attacks you may or may not want to deal with. There is some pretty hard striking in Wu/Hao that (like may CMA styles) is targeted at various points on the body and there is a rather nasty one on the back of the neck you don’t what hit. Also touching a skilled Taiji person is not an advantage, it is what they want they can then stick, follow and take their time. Luckily there are not that many skilled Taiji people around these days so I would say for the most part you are probably going to be ok, but I would still be careful. Also it takes a long time to get Taiji to the level of martial arts Taiji is suppose to be, and most taiji people do not go around looknig for fights either

Also you also need to understand, historically, in China going to the ground generally meant death so they don’t like to go there, they like to deal with things standing up. Being on the ground while horses and chariots are running around with people who have clubs, spears, axes, swords and various other nasty weapons is not a real good idea in their mind.

As to Wu and subtle and small movements, be careful what Wu you are talking about but most Taiji styles have those… as well as other movements to

Explosive movements yes but there is a lot of internal training that goes along with that, basically Qigong and in Chen and I believe Wu/Hao you have Chansigong (silk reeling)

Also in reference to another style I used in another of your threads, Sanda, there is no ground fighting as you would call it in MMA in Sanda either. First Qinna works standing up of laying down but the idea in the Sanda I was taught is the use of Shuaijiao. You are throwing someone as hard as you possibly can on the ground and the ground now becomes a weapon. Throw them hard enough they may not be able to get up. Being on the ground in a battle situation where there are tanks and other vehicles rolling by and people with knives and guns is not a good thing at all. However this does not mean you should not know how to handle it if you get there. It just is not as important as some try to make it these days.

You can say you are familiar with but I do not think I would be saying things like you “Can” tell someone what Wu/Hao can and cannot teach.

 

[clfsean]

Old CMA addage...

Hit the opponent with the biggest weapon around (the ground) and finish (with a weapon).

 

[Aiki Lee]

Look up "sakki test" on youtube. Please keep in mind that anyone can post anything on the internet a person not familiar with this test like assumes the person dodging is either anticipating the strike and gets lucky or hears the movement. If the person dodging moves because of these reasons then they did not do the exercise correctly.

 

[jks9199]

Here's one. In Bjj, I generally hear the belief '95% of fights go to the ground'

This one has always fascinated me. This may be true if you grew up watching Rickson Gracie fight ( cause his opponents might not have had a choice ), but it implies that it is a common occurrence. I think witnessed around 50 street fights. I'd say maybe 5% of them went 'to the ground'.

Anyone else have any 'beliefs' like this? Maybe things that may not agree with statistics or anything for that matter?

The "most fights go to the ground" line came from a study of LAPD encounters. Police take resisting suspects to the ground for very specific, strategic & tactical reasons. This has been covered at length several times... but the BJJ use of those numbers is a great example of the misuse of statistics.

A lot of real fights do end up in some form of wrestling/grappling; it seems to be an instinctive response to close and grab and pummel.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh and in reference to the silk reeling in Bjj, yes there are principle that can be seen in multiple martial arts because of the limited number of ways the human anatomy can move.

I just saw this, and as oaktree said it has to do with moving the body as a unit. But it also has to do with generating power with little movement and it does that by unity of body and internal training.

 

[Aiki Lee]

By the way Fangjian, if you haven't read the thread "ki is a hoax" it might be an interesting read for you where many of us go into some pretty in depth discussion about the belief of ki/chi

 

[fangjian]

By the way Fangjian, if you haven't read the thread "ki is a hoax" it might be an interesting read for you where many of us go into some pretty in depth discussion about the belief of ki/chi

Appreciate the suggestion. I sure will.

Regarding this sakki test:

If I was to do a study to test its validity I would assume that I ( with NO understanding of this training) would dodge the weapon let's say, oh I don't know, 5% - 25% of the time, and then say A HA!!! I have great skills!!!! Like gamblers who win but ignore all of fails. hehee
However I was surprised to see you say your teacher is successful about 100% of the time with highly controlled measures to protect the reliability of the test. Fascinating.

Btw, XueSheng. All of this talk about Wu Taijiquan reminds me of something funny. I was in China about 10 years ago in a small village south of HangZhou. I was training with this Wu Style guy and we would always do the tuishou. While training tuishou, he would always have a cigarette in his mouth. Being tossed consistently by a dude with a cigarette in his mouth is a humbling experience I must tell you Our audience would always get a great laugh.

 

[Aiki Lee]

My teacher passes the sakki test more like 90% of the time. Every once in a while he makes a mistake or gets caught cuz he was preoccupied. He does make mistakes but not enough for me to think he is fooling himself. It often depends on whether the sender is concentrating enough on sending him intention. The shuriken test specifically is what he has 100% in. I think theshuriken test is most effective because the person can "pull his punch" or stop a sword swing out of fear of hitting the person. The shuriken test requires you to throw a shuriken at someone and they have to move or they get hit.

 

[fangjian]

Don't know if I'm just reaching to find more things to post about regarding the topic, but it is relevant in my experience with various styles. I love stories that get passed down. They obviously change with the passing of time and get embellished as the years go by. But many teachers and schools pass on myths as if they are facts. I have a problem with this (as you may have guessed )

I'd love to hear some more but here's some off the top of my head:

-the existence of ZhangSanFeng and other mythical figures
-Shaolin is the birthplace of martial arts
-Eskrima is an 'ancient' art of the Filipino people


I understand why these stories are told and they do hold great value as part of our history. But I've experienced many people passing these historical claims off as facts.
I'd appreciate anyone that has any other stories like this they'd like to share.

 

[Xue Sheng]

-the existence of ZhangSanFeng

Zhang Sanfeng

 

[shesulsa]

Sometimes it's like Groundhog Day, isn't it?

 

[clfsean]

Sometimes it's like Groundhog Day, isn't it?

Really? This has never happened!!

 

[oaktree]

the existence of ZhangSanFeng and other mythical figures

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90646

 

[fangjian]

Sometimes it's like Groundhog Day, isn't it?

If you're implying that this topic comes up over and over again, most people that are members of public forums haven't 'been there' from the very beginning.

This thread is about 'beliefs' in martial arts wether they be supernatural or just not based on evidence. Is there anything in your style,, or any other style for that matter that you'd like to share?

Plus this is the 'general' section of MT, so everything posted here concerns martial arts in a 'general sense'. You don't have to be interested in this topic, but I am. For example, because of my superficial understanding Greco Roman wrestling's history, I thought there was an ancient origin ( probably because of its name). That assumption was incorrect.
I find it useful to have a specific thread where beliefs in martial arts in a general sense can be brought out to the open.

However, if a 'general' thread like this already exists, can someone provide a link please?

 

[shesulsa]

If you're implying that this topic comes up over and over again, most people that are members of public forums haven't 'been there' from the very beginning.

This thread is about 'beliefs' in martial arts wether they be supernatural or just not based on evidence. Is there anything in your style,, or any other style for that matter that you'd like to share?

Plus this is the 'general' section of MT, so everything posted here concerns martial arts in a 'general sense'. You don't have to be interested in this topic, but I am. For example, because of my superficial understanding Greco Roman wrestling's history, I thought there was an ancient origin ( probably because of its name). That assumption was incorrect.
I find it useful to have a specific thread where beliefs in martial arts in a general sense can be brought out to the open.

However, if a 'general' thread like this already exists, can someone provide a link please?

I've been here for seven years, and yes, this kind of thing has come up before. I do know what section of the board we're in and I understand *perfectly* what the thread is about.

There are too many threads of its kind to link to and we "old-timers" have seen and had this kind of conversation before. Many times.

Not to worry, I think you're going about the discussion in a very respectful and polite manner - refreshing for its underlying meaning, honestly.

Thanks for the invite, but it's just not something I wish to discuss more than I already have at this point. Enjoy!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Really? This has never happened!!

Yes, yes it did

over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again...then Bill Murray gets the woman he is after and its all over

 

[fangjian]

Yes, yes it did

over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again...then Bill Murray gets the woman he is after and its all over

Hehehe. Love that movie.

There's a user on youtube that posts short videos that go over basic scientific misconceptions that are popular.
you know stuff like -The north star is the brightest in the night sky (type stuff)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rLevesJi0Q&feature=channel_video_title

There are a lot of things that are misunderstood and I was hoping to find a specific thread that could go through tons of misconceptions without having to study something in depth. I know this information may exist in more specialized threads, but not everyone has time to go to each one. Couldn't find one so I made one. I only see it as being beneficial to educate the ma community in general just to minimize the silly things that are often believed.

Much of the martial arts community think things like
-All CMA comes from Shaolin
-Taijiquan/Capoeira/etc. are not martial arts
-99% of fights do to the ground
-MMA is the most accurate representation of fighting
blah blah blah


I'm surprised to hear that there's another thread that goes through a bunch of myths in this manner. If you guys can remember what the topic might have been called(so I can search for it), could u respond?