Martial Arts & Religion any Parallels????

[VSanhodo]

Hi Folks

Now I have some strong opinions on this topic but was wondering what your thoughts are. Essentially here is my questions.

(1) Do you see any parallel teachings, beliefs etc which you would say draw upon one or the other? Is so what are they and why do you believe them to be so or not?

(2) Should religion be taught as part of martial arts?

(3) Should Martial Arts be part of Religion?

I know these are fairly general questions but I am interested in seeing what ppl have to say, Remember I dont have to agree with you for your views and opinions to be welcome here.

Thanks

San

 

[dsp921]

1 - No
2 - No
3 - No
I think this depends greatly on the art and religion you are talking about. As far as what I do, they are totally separate and they should be. Each one is done for an entirely different purpose. Again, this is based on what I do, not a blanket statement.

 

[BaktoBasics]

1- NO
2- NO
3- NO

Martial arts are designed to hurt people. Example: christianity. Jesus was persecuted and provoked; he did'nt fight back. He did'nt fight back despite being attacked.

So, no. Religion does not compliment religion not do martial arts compliment religion. In Asian countries, they have developed in harmony appease social acceptability.

 

[chinto01]

My belief is that they should be kept seperate. You do not want to go pushing religion on anyone. Remember that religion is the fuel for the masses.

In the spirit of Bushido!

Rob

 

[MJS]

I also vote for keeping them seperate. Some may not want to get wrapped up in that aspect of the arts.

Mike

 

[Grenadier]

Are there some similarities? Possibly... After all, many religions (but certainly not all) tell one to use his common sense, as do many styles of martial arts.

Should the martial arts and religion be intertwined, though? Let's be a bit cautious on this matter.

I have no objection to someone, say, in my church group asking me about dojo or training recommendations, as long as they don't bother me during mass. Also, if someone in the dojo asks me after class for church recommendations (when I'm not in the role of a Karate-ka or an instructor), then I wouldn't mind pointing out a couple of places.

I would even encourage people who want to teach martial arts classes in a church in the activities room when the church isn't being used for religious services, to do so. Heck, if a church is willing to let you use their activities room space for a low cost, it certainly wouldn't hurt to start up classes there, if your clientele is a good one.

However, I don't want to see people preaching religion in a dojo, nor do I want to see people being Shanghaied into martial arts training in a church, during times when a church is supposed to be used for religious services. You go to church primarily for religious worship, and you go to a dojo primarily for martial arts training.

 

[TigerWoman]

I see parallels, morals as a Christian vs values expected of a black belt. Of course, there are also parallels on how a business person should conduct business-with integrity etc.

My instructor/master/owner has mini-bible studies in class. I have stopped participating. Just encourages more of the same.

I didn't come to a TKD class for a bible study, I came to train. I agree, they should be kept separate. TW

 

[TonyM.]

Never came up in discussion with sensei or sifu so:
1.no
2.no
3.no

 

[dsp921]

Martial arts are designed to hurt people.

I prefer to look at it as martial arts are designed to protect people, namely yourself and family, etc. Martial arts are designed as defensive, not offensive.

 

[Flatlander]

Though I would never refer to myself as being a religeous person, there are numerous examples of where my spiritual and Martial Art philosohies intersect.

From the Tao Te Ching:

31

Weapons are the tools of violence;
all decent men detest them.

Weapons are the tools of fear;
a decent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint.
Peace is his highest value.
If the peace has been shattered,
how can he be content?
His enemies are not demons,
but human beings like himself.
He doesn't wish them personal harm.
Nor does he rejoice in victory.
How could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?

He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral.


33

Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power.

If you realize that you have enough,
you are truly rich.
If you stay in the center
and embrace death with your whole heart,
you will endure forever.


36

If you want to shrink something,
you must first allow it to expand.
If you want to get rid of something,
you must first allow it to flourish.
If you want to take something,
you must first allow it to be given.
This is called the subtle perception
of the way things are.

The soft overcomes the hard.
The slow overcomes the fast.
Let your workings remain a mystery.
Just show people the results.


40

Return is the movement of the Tao.
Yielding is the way of the Tao.

All things are born of being.
Being is born of non-being


43

The gentlest thing in the world
overcomes the hardest thing in the world.
That which has no substance
enters where there is no space.
This shows the value of non-action.

Teaching without words,
performing without actions:
that is the Master's way.


48

In pursuit of knowledge,
every day something is added.
In the practice of the Tao,
every day something is dropped.
Less and less do you need to force things,
until finally you arrive at non-action.
When nothing is done,
nothing is left undone.

True mastery can be gained
by letting things go their own way.
It can't be gained by interfering.


:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Gotta say 'No' for the most part. Of course, some arts are very intertwined with a particular religion. But, these are martial arts.

 

[Marginal]

Any time a large group of people gather together and start writing on things they consider to be "good", you're going to eventually generate resonance with a lot of people after a few thousand years of effort on the topic.

Because of that, you don't really need to saddle every single other activity you pursue (I'm sure there's a Horse Riding for Christ group out there for example) with another intellectual and/or spiritual activity you also engage in.

Or...
1. No
2. No
3. No

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Though I would never refer to myself as being a religeous person, there are numerous examples of where my spiritual and Martial Art philosohies intersect.

From the Tao Te Ching:

31

Weapons are the tools of violence;
all decent men detest them.

Weapons are the tools of fear;
a decent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint.
Peace is his highest value.
If the peace has been shattered,
how can he be content?
His enemies are not demons,
but human beings like himself.
He doesn't wish them personal harm.
Nor does he rejoice in victory.
How could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?

He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral.


33

Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power.

If you realize that you have enough,
you are truly rich.
If you stay in the center
and embrace death with your whole heart,
you will endure forever.


36

If you want to shrink something,
you must first allow it to expand.
If you want to get rid of something,
you must first allow it to flourish.
If you want to take something,
you must first allow it to be given.
This is called the subtle perception
of the way things are.

The soft overcomes the hard.
The slow overcomes the fast.
Let your workings remain a mystery.
Just show people the results.


40

Return is the movement of the Tao.
Yielding is the way of the Tao.

All things are born of being.
Being is born of non-being


43

The gentlest thing in the world
overcomes the hardest thing in the world.
That which has no substance
enters where there is no space.
This shows the value of non-action.

Teaching without words,
performing without actions:
that is the Master's way.


48

In pursuit of knowledge,
every day something is added.
In the practice of the Tao,
every day something is dropped.
Less and less do you need to force things,
until finally you arrive at non-action.
When nothing is done,
nothing is left undone.

True mastery can be gained
by letting things go their own way.
It can't be gained by interfering.


:asian:

flatlander.....awesome post, i quoted so people would read it twice.

which came first....the martial arts or the religion?

exposing someone to something which may enlighten them is never a bad thing. it is the message not the messenger. there are many valuable lessons to be learned from all religions. most of them tend to revolve around the values of being kind and helping your fellow man. i dont think these lessons can be taught enough to anyone who is willing to listen. its the message that is important.

the religious aspects of the martial arts tend to be infused into the martial side and not the other way around simply because war needs temperment. the religion forms a basis of right and wrong and the best time to use them. the problem with this is, fighting in the name of your religion or cause. you may personally feel what you are doing is the right thing to do, which might be at odds with what is "right".

i would disagree that jesus was not a fighter. he fought through actions, did he get angry in the bible....sure he did, he was a man. when he went to the temple bazaar and started fliiping over tables and throwing money, he was sending a message.

so....i would say, include the important lessons minus all the religious gobbledygook.......that way it can be applicable to anyone.

 

[Jerry]

1 - Between my art (Silat), and my religion (I have none, I'm atheist)? No. Have I seen schools teaching religion and religious ideas, whether it be how God makes your martial arts better, or why you should follow Budo? Yes.

2 - To adults, sometimes. A good deal of arts are very cultural, and religion plays an important role in understanding the art. Obviously, for the very religions, religion will be mixed in all they do, from saying grace to fighting.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Well, have any of you read taming the Tiger by Tony Anthony? He claims to be World Kung Fu champion? Dont know if that is correct.

He's against Martial Arts and Buddhism etc from the start, claiming that he was both. Though I see no Buddhism in him at all, even in the books.
If thats what you meant by parallel then you get a man here who teaches martial arts as appealing only to the ego and building false self confidence and turning away from the true way of Christ?!
He a bit of a hypocrit, worth a read though!
Kind Regards

 

[BaiKaiGuy]

1. No
2. No.
3. No

But in typical Lawyer fashion, I make exceptions. My comments are a generalization. Each student has to make his or her own decision as to how their martial arts and spirituality are combined/kept separate. For me, they're intertwined. For my classmates, not so much. Depends on the student and his or her needs.

 

[Brother John]

In the West we lead comparatively 'fractured' lives, where each section of our life is segmented. In the East there's not so much of a disconnect between the different elements of ones life: religion, education, training, health, government....etc. So it's no big surprise that there are spiritual elements w/in the martial arts. Buddhist, Taoist and Shinto influences are there, if you look for them.

Are there correlations with western religions? Yes.
Jesus didn't teach pacifism, he actually advocated for self defense in the face of danger. He himself did not ward off his own torment at the hands of the Romans and at the behest of the Sanhedrin because that was a large part of his mission for all of mankind; according to the Christian faith. But when he sent his disciples out to spread the "good news" throughout Judea, he told them that it was important that they obtain a sword. He even told them that if they didn't have the money to buy one, to sell their cloaks to obtain one.
BUT: he also, in the same setting, related that we shouldn't "over-do" it. When one of the disciples spoke up and said that they did have one sword, he said: "That is enough." Note: Christ didn't send them out to be a militia, but made certain that they had the ability to defend themselves.

I see lots of other correlations with Christianity, but I'd probably bore everyone.
Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Should religion play any role in Martial arts training???
not really, I don't think.

Now there are schools/clubs where they profess to be a "Christian", and there is some prayer and sharing in religious views....witnessing....etc. I think that's great, but it needs to be clearly stated to all that investigate the school/club that that is the case. I went to a school once to check it out and ended up at a prayer service with Gi's on. :idunno:
Not good. State what it is so that people can make an informed decision about what they'd like to do.

I do think that ethics can be shared, talk of character, values and such. I see that as important....but not really confined to one set of dogmatic views.

Your Brother
John