Begginner really needs help

[Drakeh]

Hello everyone. I came here because I really need help. I am teen. I used to train boxing (for few months), but classes were canceled because trainer/teacher died. I really want to learn martial arts but I have huge problem. Now closest martial art classes are 30 km away from place were I live. I cant go to them because classes start before my normal(school) classes end. I asked friends for help. Thay told me that they cant help me because ether thay have other things to do (for example play basketball) or go to evening/night classes (which starts at noon instead of morning). They only helped because they gave me tons of training dvds.

So my questions is. Can someone suggest me sth? I really want to learn martial arts

 

[Chris Parker]

I'd suggest reading this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?99678-Why-so-nasty

I'd also reiterate my responce there, as it applies directly to your question. You may think it's a bit harsh, but it's also the reality of the situation for you:

Hmm. First off, I don't think anyone here has ever really been "nasty" about DVD programs and their ilk, nor have they "trashed" them, but have given honest opinions of such training methods. And that opinion is rather universal amongst serious and experienced martial artists, namely that it just isn't a good idea. There are just too many issues with vital pieces of the instruction missing, correction not really being possible, and more. And the sad reality of such things are that if you aren't in a position to learn an art, then you aren't in a position to learn an art. You then have two choices; either move to where you can learn it and change your circumstances to allow it, or accept that you can't learn it at this point in time. That's not nasty, it's just reality. Think of it like attending Harvard - unless you are living near Harvard, you can't attend it. You can attend other universities, but not that one. And that is something that is not nasty, it's reality.

DVDs and books form good supplements to actual instruction, but cannot take the place of actual instruction by themselves. The big issue here, though, isn't whether or not DVD learning is a good idea or not, it's whether you can accept other people's opinions and what the reality of the situation is. You've just arrived on this site, resurrected a thread on "Nasty Instructors" 9 years after the last post to complain about someone who took you for a ride (a negative thread and post), and started this one, which is a complaint and negative statement on this entire site, as there is not much support for your approach. I kinda hate to be so blunt, but frankly, deal with it.

If you do not have access to the system you wish to study, you don't have access to the system you wish to study. That's really the long and the short of it. DVD learning is a poor substitute at best.

 

[jks9199]

Accept that it's not going to happen. Not right now. When you're a little older, and have more freedom in your schedule, and have finished school -- you can start training. Until then, work on getting and staying in shape. You can do that with no equipment at all; you don't need a fancy gym. Bodyweight exercises, running, swimming... and don't neglect developing flexibility!

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

I want to take a give a different answer in that DVD's and other visual media (youtube) provide a phenomenal learning capability that was previously unavailable. To suggest that this tool is a poor substitute is to underestimate the value of this new media. The capabilities of seeing multiple ways to execute even simple techniques enables people to now see and spot differences in technique that would have previously taken years to study. Even self-perception can be brought to a new level by simply filming oneself.

I would argue it isn't the technology that is the weakness; it is the lack social pressure that reinforces basic discipline. Without an obligations either to others (teacher / fellow students) or a monetary commitment (member dues) or an outside need (i.e. an immediate physical threat), the training will soon fall off.

 

[Chris Parker]

They provide a greater opportunity to learn about many arts, and get a greater exposure to them, but they are just not good for learning an art itself. If you are already familiar with the system, they can certainly enhance your training, but learning from them in the first place is just not a good idea.

It's not actually down to the tools, it's down to the limitations and missing essential components of learning martial arts that this particular method of learning have. For instance, I took my guys through a series of knife defence techniques yesterday, and put everything that I would put in a DVD form in my demonstration of the technique. It was performed from various angles, the students were invited to move to a position where they could see clearly, all the pertinent points were covered, the essential aspects were explained, and so on. But then moving around the group, each person needed to have at least one or two things corrected, and each typically had something different that needed correction. That included things demonstrated but not stated, things where I had to reference previous lessons for that particular student, highlighting things that were in the explanation, rephrasing things, or adding particular details for a student to understand what the lesson was actually teachings. No DVD can provide that level or type of feedback, so even though my guys are experienced in the system (ranging from a few months to a number of years in the art), know my teaching style, this was the third week in a row we'd covered this type of material (the same principles applied in a slightly different scenario), not one of them would have actually learnt it properly from a DVD source, as they would pick up on some things, but not everything, and the learning happens in two ways in a martial art: application against a partner, and fine-tuning and correction on a personal level, attuned to the student, their abilities, and relative experience. This is just not possible in a DVD learning method.

 

[frank raud]

I want to take a give a different answer in that DVD's and other visual media (youtube) provide a phenomenal learning capability that was previously unavailable. To suggest that this tool is a poor substitute is to underestimate the value of this new media. The capabilities of seeing multiple ways to execute even simple techniques enables people to now see and spot differences in technique that would have previously taken years to study. Even self-perception can be brought to a new level by simply filming oneself.

I would argue it isn't the technology that is the weakness; it is the lack social pressure that reinforces basic discipline. Without an obligations either to others (teacher / fellow students) or a monetary commitment (member dues) or an outside need (i.e. an immediate physical threat), the training will soon fall off.

There is no feedback from a video or DVD, no ability to correct your mistakes. You may believe you are executing the techniques EXACTLY as you see it, but it is extremely likely that as a beginner with NO knowledge of the martial arts, that your posture or stance is wrong. In the OP example, he has minimal boxing experience. When he filters what he sees on a DVD through the little that he knows, it is almost certain he will make mistakes(that would be picked up by an observant instructor) and ingrain bad techniques. One person with no knowledge of martial arts can't learn from a DVD, two people with no expereince can't correct each other as they have no basis to judge from. DVDs can be a great learning aid for someone with a solid base in an art, lousy way to learn. Ever do judo with someone who learned from a video? Or see what happens when a video trained guy shows up at a BJJ competition? Reality sets in.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Hello everyone. I came here because I really need help. I am teen. I used to train boxing (for few months), but classes were canceled because trainer/teacher died. I really want to learn martial arts but I have huge problem. Now closest martial art classes are 30 km away from place were I live. I cant go to them because classes start before my normal(school) classes end. I asked friends for help. Thay told me that they cant help me because ether thay have other things to do (for example play basketball) or go to evening/night classes (which starts at noon instead of morning). They only helped because they gave me tons of training dvds.

So my questions is. Can someone suggest me sth? I really want to learn martial arts

Change your circumstances so that you can get live martial arts training. If you want it badly enough, you will find a way to make that happen; even if it means waiting until you are done with school and have the ability to move or change your schedule. If you do not want it badly enough, you will continue to come up with excuses and reasons why you cannot train in person. Part of the determining factor in your future success in martial arts training is how much pain you are willing to endure to get to the training. If you will not train because it is not convenient, then you have already proven your worth as a student. These words sound harsh, but I do not mean them in an angry or demeaning way. Every aspect of your future training will be up to you. Teachers can only teach, students must do the actual work. Students who are unwilling or unaccustomed to hard work do not continue training. If there is actual sacrifice involved in getting your life arranged so that you can attend martial arts training, you will already have made an investment in your success. If it is just too difficult, then you are better not to have spent the money, because you surely would have quit the actual training.

 

[frank raud]

Hello everyone. I came here because I really need help. I am teen. I used to train boxing (for few months), but classes were canceled because trainer/teacher died. I really want to learn martial arts but I have huge problem. Now closest martial art classes are 30 km away from place were I live. I cant go to them because classes start before my normal(school) classes end. I asked friends for help. Thay told me that they cant help me because ether thay have other things to do (for example play basketball) or go to evening/night classes (which starts at noon instead of morning). They only helped because they gave me tons of training dvds.

So my questions is. Can someone suggest me sth? I really want to learn martial arts

Start lifting weights, run. Make an agility ladder and use it. You will gain strength, speed, agility and co-ordination in preparation for when you are able to properly learn martial arts, with an instructor.

Irony is having an ad for a home study Muay Thai course in the OP's post.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

I know that I'm taking a position that is inherently unpopular and counterintuitive, but please hear me out.

If one of the skills that one needs to truly do martial arts (or any other) is the understanding of how the move works, where it fails, and what are the key aspects that lead to success or failure. This is why years of experience in a teacher matters. Instructors learn by seeing so many students fail in so many ways that the instructor would not have ever thought of failing. Seeing it done wrong, or at least differently, and in so many ways gives an instructor insight that they would have not had if they were only ever a student. This understanding then provides feedback to the teacher and clarifies the technique in the teacher. Almost every teacher says the same thing – teaching improves your basic skills.

Along with teaching, this self-awareness of technique can be gained by focused observing of others. Not just mindless hours watching kung fu movies (not that there is anything wrong with that, just not helpful for this possibility), but studying of various ways that various people teach and execute the same method. The ability to compare and contrast teachers, techniques, and styles is a well-established means to gain proficiency. What has changed is the breadth and scope that of what one can compare with current technology. Is video comparison as good as actually teaching a class? It could be, and if done right, this video comparison could be better than teaching.

So, if one could gain the insight of a teacher, could one develop the proprioception necessary to execute the moves without outside expert feedback? I don’t see why not. There are many tools traditionally used that are designed to provide feedback without the instructor. A wing chun dummy or even a simple speed bag both provide technique feedback without an instructor. Adding in now the ability to actually see oneself via video, one could get the necessary feedback, combined with a “teachers eye” to bootstrap oneself up to a skilled martial artist.

Considering that the library of necessary images is only now being built, it is easy to say that since no one has learned fully by self-instruction, it must be impossible. But, out there is a kid who learned math, language, and art via computer video lessons. Is martial arts really that different? I would say not, it presents a set of challenges, but there is nothing in this physical activity that prevents deep understanding via a video learning based process.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

There is no feedback from a video or DVD, no ability to correct your mistakes. You may believe you are executing the techniques EXACTLY as you see it, but it is extremely likely that as a beginner with NO knowledge of the martial arts, that your posture or stance is wrong. In the OP example, he has minimal boxing experience. When he filters what he sees on a DVD through the little that he knows, it is almost certain he will make mistakes(that would be picked up by an observant instructor) and ingrain bad techniques. One person with no knowledge of martial arts can't learn from a DVD, two people with no expereince can't correct each other as they have no basis to judge from. DVDs can be a great learning aid for someone with a solid base in an art, lousy way to learn. Ever do judo with someone who learned from a video? Or see what happens when a video trained guy shows up at a BJJ competition? Reality sets in.

I think the assumption you are making is that the self-student would repeat a flaw from a first attempt and repeat it often so that it became a learned pattern that would represent an ingrained flaw. Given that you have probably seen students with ingrained flaws come from other training schools, this would be a fair assumption. I would say that that flaw was trained in by the instructor (or not trained out – same thing). Would a self-instructed student who is constantly questioning their technique have that same issue? Probably, but this is no more or less likely than one would get from an instructor.

I was not saying “a” DVD; I was going for as many videos of all sources as could be found.

And, no, I have not seen a person trained by video show up to a BJJ competition. Have you?

 

[Cyriacus]

I know that I'm taking a position that is inherently unpopular and counterintuitive, but please hear me out.

If one of the skills that one needs to truly do martial arts (or any other) is the understanding of how the move works, where it fails, and what are the key aspects that lead to success or failure. This is why years of experience in a teacher matters. Instructors learn by seeing so many students fail in so many ways that the instructor would not have ever thought of failing. Seeing it done wrong, or at least differently, and in so many ways gives an instructor insight that they would have not had if they were only ever a student. This understanding then provides feedback to the teacher and clarifies the technique in the teacher. Almost every teacher says the same thing – teaching improves your basic skills.

Along with teaching, this self-awareness of technique can be gained by focused observing of others. Not just mindless hours watching kung fu movies (not that there is anything wrong with that, just not helpful for this possibility), but studying of various ways that various people teach and execute the same method. The ability to compare and contrast teachers, techniques, and styles is a well-established means to gain proficiency. What has changed is the breadth and scope that of what one can compare with current technology. Is video comparison as good as actually teaching a class? It could be, and if done right, this video comparison could be better than teaching.

So, if one could gain the insight of a teacher, could one develop the proprioception necessary to execute the moves without outside expert feedback? I don’t see why not. There are many tools traditionally used that are designed to provide feedback without the instructor. A wing chun dummy or even a simple speed bag both provide technique feedback without an instructor. Adding in now the ability to actually see oneself via video, one could get the necessary feedback, combined with a “teachers eye” to bootstrap oneself up to a skilled martial artist.

Considering that the library of necessary images is only now being built, it is easy to say that since no one has learned fully by self-instruction, it must be impossible. But, out there is a kid who learned math, language, and art via computer video lessons. Is martial arts really that different? I would say not, it presents a set of challenges, but there is nothing in this physical activity that prevents deep understanding via a video learning based process.

To the Bold Underlined: Yes, Yes it is. VERY Different.
To the Bold: The Classic Karate Kid didnt Teach Me Sliding Side Kick or Jumping Back Kick, but damn the Combination is Effective. Note that this isnt relevant to the Conversation. Im just saying that while You cannot Learn Kung Fu from a Kung Fu Movie, You can learn Basic Combinations that perhaps arent as Obvious in what Youre Learning. Thats actually quite Acceptable, I think.

Ill say what I said in the Other Thread though, since DVDs seem to be the Topic of the Week apparently. And if I hadnt seen more than one of You Whitebelts Online at the same time, Id almost Suspect it was the same Person, given that right after a Thread about someone asking why People are nasty about DVD Learning when He cant get to any Organisations He wants in a timely manner, a Beginner hasnt a Training Hall within 30 Minutes makes a Thread, and someone else suggests DVDs

--On Topic. And that was not an Accusation by the way, You Conclusion Jumping Humans. Im just commenting on how Unusual it is. But again; Multiple of You Online at once. So while its Possible, I dont care enough to look harder, and it doesnt really matter anyway, because the Conversation wouldnt be any different

Noones being Nasty, theyre being Blunt, instead of repeating the same Story over again.

Instructed Training > Referential Training.
Referential Training + Capable Individual = Good Result.
Referential Training + Incapable Individual = Bad Result.
Instructed Training + Any Individual = Better Result.
Instructed Training By A Bad Instructor = Just as Bad a Result.
Referential Training + Experienced Partners = Why do You need the Referential Training if Theyre so Qualified and Talented and Proficient as to be able to Spot every Flaw and cite Years of Experience?

The Bottom Line is, that You cannot Argue in Favor of this kind of Training. You can Justify it. And it is certainly Justifiable under the right Conditions. But as just about everyone has said, its a Question of Quality. If Your best Option is the Quality offered by Referential Training, then Good. If You have a Better Option, which You apparently dont, then thats better.
But You dont.
So its Fine.

 

[Cyriacus]

I think the assumption you are making is that the self-student would repeat a flaw from a first attempt and repeat it often so that it became a learned pattern that would represent an ingrained flaw. Given that you have probably seen students with ingrained flaws come from other training schools, this would be a fair assumption. I would say that that flaw was trained in by the instructor (or not trained out – same thing). Would a self-instructed student who is constantly questioning their technique have that same issue? Probably, but this is no more or less likely than one would get from an instructor.

This is also too Generalised. This just means the Student had a crummy inefficient Instructor. Not that Instructed Teaching can be levelled out as a Result of that.

I was not saying “a” DVD; I was going for as many videos of all sources as could be found.

And, no, I have not seen a person trained by video show up to a BJJ competition. Have you?

Nope. But I think You missed the Point of His Comment

Just adding a bit of Discussion Aspecto.

 

[frank raud]

I know that I'm taking a position that is inherently unpopular and counterintuitive, but please hear me out.

If one of the skills that one needs to truly do martial arts (or any other) is the understanding of how the move works, where it fails, and what are the key aspects that lead to success or failure. This is why years of experience in a teacher matters. Instructors learn by seeing so many students fail in so many ways that the instructor would not have ever thought of failing. Seeing it done wrong, or at least differently, and in so many ways gives an instructor insight that they would have not had if they were only ever a student. This understanding then provides feedback to the teacher and clarifies the technique in the teacher. Almost every teacher says the same thing – teaching improves your basic skills.

Along with teaching, this self-awareness of technique can be gained by focused observing of others. Not just mindless hours watching kung fu movies (not that there is anything wrong with that, just not helpful for this possibility), but studying of various ways that various people teach and execute the same method. The ability to compare and contrast teachers, techniques, and styles is a well-established means to gain proficiency. What has changed is the breadth and scope that of what one can compare with current technology. Is video comparison as good as actually teaching a class? It could be, and if done right, this video comparison could be better than teaching.

So, if one could gain the insight of a teacher, could one develop the proprioception necessary to execute the moves without outside expert feedback? I don’t see why not. There are many tools traditionally used that are designed to provide feedback without the instructor. A wing chun dummy or even a simple speed bag both provide technique feedback without an instructor. Adding in now the ability to actually see oneself via video, one could get the necessary feedback, combined with a “teachers eye” to bootstrap oneself up to a skilled martial artist.

Considering that the library of necessary images is only now being built, it is easy to say that since no one has learned fully by self-instruction, it must be impossible. But, out there is a kid who learned math, language, and art via computer video lessons. Is martial arts really that different? I would say not, it presents a set of challenges, but there is nothing in this physical activity that prevents deep understanding via a video learning based process.

I would hope that before someone STARTS teaching , that they are very familiar with the course of instruction being given, be it math or martial arts. Experience in teaching reinforces lessons already learned by the teacher, allowing the teacher to perhaps present the material in a slightly different way, to pass that knowledge and understanding on to their students. That is feedback, both tacticile and cerebrel, something a DVd/Video/computer program can't give. Is there someone out there who can acquire this kind of knowledge by just watching a video? Probably, but they qualify as a freak of nature. There are martial artists who can see a technique once, and then perform the kata or waza exactly as their instructor showed them. Do you base a class curriculum off of these gifted people, when the majority of people struggle to memorise the sequence of a kata? The OP is a teenager with limited experience in boxing, are you suggesting that somehow he/she has developed the skills and ability to develop a "teachers eye" in a subject where they have no experience?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

How many times, even as an advanced underbelt, have I been asked "Am I doing this right?" by a newer student who is attempting to perform what they have just been shown by our sensei. Even from my meager experience, I see what they are doing wrong and correct it. But to ask them, they are doing exactly what they were shown.

They repeat after I have corrected them, they do it wrong again. I correct again. They do it wrong again. I correct again. We try various ways of explaining to each other what it is that they are doing versus what they should be doing, until something clicks and they start to do it right. Awkward and slow, but the move is essentially correct. Next week, they'll be doing it wrong again, but they will be more easily correctable and they'll start doing it right more quickly. Eventually, they won't need correction anymore for that particular move. Then it is just practice.

Over time, however, they'll start to drift out again. The older more sloppy ways will start to come back in. Others will notice it and say something, and they'll self-correct. After enough of those corrections, they'll stop drifting out.

Now show me the video that looks at your performance and notes your deficiencies. Show me the student who knows they are not performing exactly what they saw on the video; the fact is, they think they are performing it just as it was shown; and they are not. The closest thing I have seen to attempts to address that deficiency are schemes by which the student videos themselves performing the movement and send it to the instructor, who observes it and offers corrections. I suppose it might work; but it is by necessity slow and tedious. Plus, I can show you a block much more simply if I can grab your arm and position thusly, as opposed to saying "Higher...no, lower than that. Now turn your palm inward slightly, no not that far. Up a little, no down. Good. Now ground yourself and feel the force of my blow flow through you and down your rear leg into the floor." Yeah. Not fun.

I am not an expert, but I have some experience in helping newer students, plus my own memories of the errors I made and continue to make while believing I am doing exactly what I was shown.

Video learning by itself is not effective for martial arts; this is my opinion, colored by my experience for that it may be worth. If you think otherwise, that's OK. You do what you want to do and I will do what I want to do.

Honestly, and without pointing fingers or accusing anyone of anything, I find it difficult to believe that anyone who has ever had one day of actual training in a real life training facility doesn't get this. If you've had 'real' training and still think a book or video will suffice instead of (not talking about in addition to) real training, I just don't understand. I do have some question as to whether or not those advocating video-only training have ever stepped foot into a real dojo.

 

[wildcat91]

Hello everyone. I came here because I really need help. I am teen. I used to train boxing (for few months), but classes were canceled because trainer/teacher died. I really want to learn martial arts but I have huge problem. Now closest martial art classes are 30 km away from place were I live. I cant go to them because classes start before my normal(school) classes end. I asked friends for help. Thay told me that they cant help me because ether thay have other things to do (for example play basketball) or go to evening/night classes (which starts at noon instead of morning). They only helped because they gave me tons of training dvds.

So my questions is. Can someone suggest me sth? I really want to learn martial arts

Where are you that there is only one school and it only has one possible time for you to attend class. Keep looking around. Possible someone in the area that offers private instruction. Look for local clubs in nearby universities. Check out weekend seminars. Remember in almost everthing you want to do in life you have to make certain sacrefices and compromises. Just need to weigh whats most important to you. Good Luck

 

[Chris Parker]

I know that I'm taking a position that is inherently unpopular and counterintuitive, but please hear me out.

If one of the skills that one needs to truly do martial arts (or any other) is the understanding of how the move works, where it fails, and what are the key aspects that lead to success or failure. This is why years of experience in a teacher matters. Instructors learn by seeing so many students fail in so many ways that the instructor would not have ever thought of failing. Seeing it done wrong, or at least differently, and in so many ways gives an instructor insight that they would have not had if they were only ever a student. This understanding then provides feedback to the teacher and clarifies the technique in the teacher. Almost every teacher says the same thing – teaching improves your basic skills.

Along with teaching, this self-awareness of technique can be gained by focused observing of others. Not just mindless hours watching kung fu movies (not that there is anything wrong with that, just not helpful for this possibility), but studying of various ways that various people teach and execute the same method. The ability to compare and contrast teachers, techniques, and styles is a well-established means to gain proficiency. What has changed is the breadth and scope that of what one can compare with current technology. Is video comparison as good as actually teaching a class? It could be, and if done right, this video comparison could be better than teaching.

So, if one could gain the insight of a teacher, could one develop the proprioception necessary to execute the moves without outside expert feedback? I don’t see why not. There are many tools traditionally used that are designed to provide feedback without the instructor. A wing chun dummy or even a simple speed bag both provide technique feedback without an instructor. Adding in now the ability to actually see oneself via video, one could get the necessary feedback, combined with a “teachers eye” to bootstrap oneself up to a skilled martial artist.

Considering that the library of necessary images is only now being built, it is easy to say that since no one has learned fully by self-instruction, it must be impossible. But, out there is a kid who learned math, language, and art via computer video lessons. Is martial arts really that different? I would say not, it presents a set of challenges, but there is nothing in this physical activity that prevents deep understanding via a video learning based process.

Except that that is not what is being discussed here at all. The complete novice student does not have the eyes of an experienced instructor, nor necessarily even the insight to see the differences between interpretations, let alone the reasons for such changes. For someone learning from the beginning, watching multiple forms of an art from multiple sources can be downright confusing, not enlightening. That's something that a more experienced practitioner can get out of DVDs/you-tube etc, and is what I was getting at when I said earlier that they are a great source for learning about a range of arts, or variations, not for learning an art itself. And as this thread is started by an individual wanting advice on a starting point, not an instructor wanting further research or reference material.

In terms of your hypothetical kid, it's vastly different; the learning method is different, the compartmentalisation of the skillset is vastly different, the training method is different, the ways of measuring success is very different, and more. And in terms of the punching bag and wooden dummy providing feedback, well, yeah, but not in the same way or in the same detail. It's a very different thing that we're talking about with a teachers feedback.

I think the assumption you are making is that the self-student would repeat a flaw from a first attempt and repeat it often so that it became a learned pattern that would represent an ingrained flaw. Given that you have probably seen students with ingrained flaws come from other training schools, this would be a fair assumption. I would say that that flaw was trained in by the instructor (or not trained out – same thing). Would a self-instructed student who is constantly questioning their technique have that same issue? Probably, but this is no more or less likely than one would get from an instructor.

I was not saying “a” DVD; I was going for as many videos of all sources as could be found.

And, no, I have not seen a person trained by video show up to a BJJ competition. Have you?

Honestly, I think you're assuming a fair amount about Frank's comments there. The assumption that he is making is that mistakes in interpretation, execution, application, observation, and practice of the video techniques would not be corrected by an outside source (a teacher), and therefore would be repeated and ingrained. I didn't see anything in his post that implied poor students coming from another school. And, frankly, Franks comment stands pretty well (well, it was very similar to mine, really), so I'm on his side here.

 

[frank raud]

I have 25 years of continous martial arts experience, I would not presume that with my expereince I could learn Shotokan via DVd(I have almost no experience in Karate), nor could I learn any style of Kung Fu(I have 0 experience in CMA). Can I pick up techniques and pointers on judo/jiu jitsu? Yes, but that is the area I have experience in.

 

[mook jong man]

A wooden dummy will give you feed back , if you hit it will bounce back.
But only an experienced instructor can tell you whether you generated that force in the correct manner to cause the reaction in the dummy.

An experienced instructor can tell by the sound you are making on the arms if you are doing it correctly or not.
The internet is full of idiots who think it is some sort of conditioning tool for your arms and set about going a million miles an hour trying to smash the crap out of the dummy and snap the arms off.

It is a much more sophisticated tool than that and one which needs to be taught by a qualified Wing Chun instructor , fine if your from some other style and your just having a play around on it but don't for one second think that what you are doing is Wing Chun and that you are using it properly as taught in the Wing Chun system.

 

[frank raud]

I think the assumption you are making is that the self-student would repeat a flaw from a first attempt and repeat it often so that it became a learned pattern that would represent an ingrained flaw. Given that you have probably seen students with ingrained flaws come from other training schools, this would be a fair assumption. I would say that that flaw was trained in by the instructor (or not trained out – same thing). Would a self-instructed student who is constantly questioning their technique have that same issue? Probably, but this is no more or less likely than one would get from an instructor.

I was not saying “a” DVD; I was going for as many videos of all sources as could be found.

And, no, I have not seen a person trained by video show up to a BJJ competition. Have you?

Having no feedback from a more experienced teacher, why would you expect a raw novice to be able to self correct? If you don't know what you are looking for to correct, how can you be expected to correct it? Interesting how you compare a self taught student to one who has had a lousy instructor.

 

[JohnEdward]

Where are you that there is only one school and it only has one possible time for you to attend class. Keep looking around. Possible someone in the area that offers private instruction. Look for local clubs in nearby universities. Check out weekend seminars. Remember in almost everthing you want to do in life you have to make certain sacrefices and compromises. Just need to weigh whats most important to you. Good Luck

I would also add having patience. It might not happen right away or as quickly as you like. Patience does pay off.