Is Wing Chun even viable.

Graywalker

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I would say yes. At least parts of it, do seem to be viable.

I am not an expert or even a practitioner, but I believe most systems have some units that work, if needed.
 

Oily Dragon

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Insufficient long range methodology consisting of an underwhelming side kick, and possibly some stomps. No that I think the close range part is sufficient either....

The Chinese saying for this is the bridge inside one inch, the cheun kiu. It's fairly lethal.
 

Hanzou

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Wing Chun's effectiveness depends on the practitioner and the instruction.

It wouldn't be on my personal list of recommended styles, but different people have different interests.
 

Oily Dragon

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Wing Chun's effectiveness depends on the practitioner and the instruction.

It wouldn't be on my personal list of recommended styles, but different people have different interests.

You can learn a lot of Wing Chun by learning other styles, particularly southern family styles.

You could do a lot with Wing Chun if you knew what you were doing first.

If you don't, you'd probably think kim yeurng ma is a fighting stance.
 
D

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My older brother got wing chung classes and he like it.
He didnt go to some classes and dropped it, because his teacher changed, but he still had in his mind, that
wing chun is viable,.... because his trainer said he needed self defense and started giving him classes.

I am doing muay thai right now, and I have to say its fricking amazing! Just all the kind of kicks is so much fun.
I had a sparring match as well (but sadly a boxing sparring match, because I only had 2 days of training, but still fun!). I got a lot of adrenaline and it felt so good being in a sparring match.
After I told my older brother about it, he got a bit depressed, because he watched a video of 5 fake martial arts, and wing chun was at number one. Because I am not quite the martial artist, I need your guys' opinion on this martial art. Is it viable, or fake?


Hi.

I can only speak from my own experiences and the experience from fellow martial artists I was sparring with.
I did WT for a while and overall I find it to be completely useless the way it is trained in MOST schools. It's effective against others who also use WT against you but once you hop in to a sparring match with someone who practices let's say MT or Kickboxing or hell..even MMA, you are going to eat blood.

I have only seen/heard of some WT schools that involve full contact sparring in full speed and all, which I think do prepare you for real self defense as it allows you to get an insight in to what really works in practice and not only in theory and ultra controlled training.

The only thing I personally have taken from WT in to other martial arts is the reflexes and a few blocks but that's about it.

However as with all systems I personally think that if you train it a hell a lot, do some more work at home (your homework), conditioning and such as well as semi to full contact sparring and maybe compete with martial artists from other systems from time to time, you can indeed use WT effectively and call it viable.

But in my opinion there are other systems that get you the same fun, require less work but get you " combat ready " a lot more effectively and quicker.

Again, this is just my personal opinion and I know there are tons of people who swear on WT but also in my experience, non of them has ever won a match against me as especially when I was younger I did challenge Kung-Fu and WT guys in my area, they might landed a few hard punches in my head but were annexed and overwhelmed by kicks and punches quickly as their techniques would require ubermensch kind of reflexes and speed to actually work on my aggressive strikes.
 

Shatteredzen

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Meanwhile in the Internet:

Qi La La seems to put much of the argument regarding its use to bed, considering he is an almost exclusively trained Kung Fu/WC guy and he's using it in the ring with Muay Thai and kickboxers.
 

drop bear

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Qi La La seems to put much of the argument regarding its use to bed, considering he is an almost exclusively trained Kung Fu/WC guy and he's using it in the ring with Muay Thai and kickboxers.

But it doesn't justify your process if it is different to his.

You have to see how he is training and replicate that.

So for example. I do sparring and Tiger Muay thai does sparring so I am training like tiger muay thai.

And they produce top tier fighters so therefore my system works.

But I don't spar anything like this.

So I am not going to achieve anything near the same results.
 

Hanzou

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But it doesn't justify your process if it is different to his.

You have to see how he is training and replicate that.

So for example. I do sparring and Tiger Muay thai does sparring so I am training like tiger muay thai.

And they produce top tier fighters so therefore my system works.

But I don't spar anything like this.

So I am not going to achieve anything near the same results.

Yeah, I'll stick to Bjj. I have a white collar job and I can't show up to the office with black eyes and a busted lip.

Kudos to those guys though, looks like some fun times!
 

drop bear

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Yeah, I'll stick to Bjj. I have a white collar job and I can't show up to the office with black eyes and a busted lip.

Kudos to those guys though, looks like some fun times!

That is the pro fighter class.

They do have a vegi patch. They do have a very patch for the rest of us.
 

Shatteredzen

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But it doesn't justify your process if it is different to his.

You have to see how he is training and replicate that.

So for example. I do sparring and Tiger Muay thai does sparring so I am training like tiger muay thai.

And they produce top tier fighters so therefore my system works.

But I don't spar anything like this.

So I am not going to achieve anything near the same results.

The exact same thing can be said for any martial art, any MMA school or camp. You get out based on what you put in. Just because someone trains in BJJ or MMA over Wing Chun does not make them competent as a fighter or able to apply any of it in the real world. You need realistic training or it doesn't matter what system you study. The fight is going to come down to the physicality and conditioning of the fighters first, with technique/training being the deciding factor if both are close to equal. For example, a sufficiently motivated Westerner with enough size and reach can do very well in Muay Thai against the often much smaller Thai fighters who just don't have the strength, reach or ability to hurt the larger Westerner, that doesn't make the Westerner better at Muay Thai, its just a huge physical advantage. We have weight classes in most fighting sports to prevent this and to promote technique over sheer physicality. Put a 5 foot seven BJJ guy in with a six foot four WC boxer and watch the BJJ not work all day long. Taken out of context, you would then mistake WC for a great system and BJJ as worthless because you had seen a slanted competition. Qi La La proves that an equal level of physicality and training in WC can produce similar results to his competitors in Muay Thai and Kickboxing. This vindicates the original argument that WC is ineffective.
 

Steve

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The exact same thing can be said for any martial art, any MMA school or camp. You get out based on what you put in. Just because someone trains in BJJ or MMA over Wing Chun does not make them competent as a fighter or able to apply any of it in the real world. You need realistic training or it doesn't matter what system you study. The fight is going to come down to the physicality and conditioning of the fighters first, with technique/training being the deciding factor if both are close to equal. For example, a sufficiently motivated Westerner with enough size and reach can do very well in Muay Thai against the often much smaller Thai fighters who just don't have the strength, reach or ability to hurt the larger Westerner, that doesn't make the Westerner better at Muay Thai, its just a huge physical advantage. We have weight classes in most fighting sports to prevent this and to promote technique over sheer physicality. Put a 5 foot seven BJJ guy in with a six foot four WC boxer and watch the BJJ not work all day long. Taken out of context, you would then mistake WC for a great system and BJJ as worthless because you had seen a slanted competition. Qi La La proves that an equal level of physicality and training in WC can produce similar results to his competitors in Muay Thai and Kickboxing. This vindicates the original argument that WC is ineffective.
I think the big difference between bjj (or any style with a similar training model) and any style with a more traditional training model is that in the former, what you describe above is common sense... A given. In more traditional styles, it is often considered heresy.

I'm a big fan of teaching to the test. If you aren't testing at all, that's a real concern. But there is nothing wrong with a slanted test, if the test is consistent with your goals.
 

Shatteredzen

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I think the big difference between bjj (or any style with a similar training model) and any style with a more traditional training model is that in the former, what you describe above is common sense... A given. In more traditional styles, it is often considered heresy.

I'm a big fan of teaching to the test. If you aren't testing at all, that's a real concern. But there is nothing wrong with a slanted test, if the test is consistent with your goals.

If you are ever in a class and the instructor refuses to answer the question "why?" walk out, its a cult. There are schools who are interested in teaching just the forms and none of the application, even during the Eido period in Japan there were intense arguments about schools not teaching anything practical. There is quite a bit of language in the various Koryu scrolls that say the different Ryu were getting polluted as soon as twenty years after the Warring states period came to an end. I think its only right to update and modernize the styles as we go, if you truly love the art, teach the kabuki theatre version AND do the work to bring it up to date and make it functional or teach only the traditional form and then make no claims to practical application or effectiveness.

BJJ, because it has gotten so popular has had a lot of momentum and the last twenty years or so has probably seen more people working to perfect and correct the system than possibly the rest of the traditional martial arts combined. BJJ is in a place now where all the other martial arts are struggling to get to and lots of this is due to the failings of the western schools and all the crap that got circulated from the seventies onward. We all owe a debt to the Gracie family for taking the world martial arts community to task, but that doesn't mean that BJJ is a one and done school, none of them are, to be well rounded you are going to need to study BJJ in addition to some kind of stand up grappling/wrestling and then add a striking art on top of it. As of right now, there is no "do it all" system, the budo especially were never meant to be learned individually, a Samurai would have learned wrestling/Judo and Ju-Jitsu or some other hand to hand ryu and their archery/sword forms.
 

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If you are ever in a class and the instructor refuses to answer the question "why?" walk out, its a cult. There are schools who are interested in teaching just the forms and none of the application, even during the Eido period in Japan there were intense arguments about schools not teaching anything practical. There is quite a bit of language in the various Koryu scrolls that say the different Ryu were getting polluted as soon as twenty years after the Warring states period came to an end. I think its only right to update and modernize the styles as we go, if you truly love the art, teach the kabuki theatre version AND do the work to bring it up to date and make it functional or teach only the traditional form and then make no claims to practical application or effectiveness.

BJJ, because it has gotten so popular has had a lot of momentum and the last twenty years or so has probably seen more people working to perfect and correct the system than possibly the rest of the traditional martial arts combined. BJJ is in a place now where all the other martial arts are struggling to get to and lots of this is due to the failings of the western schools and all the crap that got circulated from the seventies onward. We all owe a debt to the Gracie family for taking the world martial arts community to task, but that doesn't mean that BJJ is a one and done school, none of them are, to be well rounded you are going to need to study BJJ in addition to some kind of stand up grappling/wrestling and then add a striking art on top of it. As of right now, there is no "do it all" system, the budo especially were never meant to be learned individually, a Samurai would have learned wrestling/Judo and Ju-Jitsu or some other hand to hand ryu and their archery/sword forms.
I will have to take your word on the japanese history stuff, but I thought judo was only 20 or so years older than bjj.
 

Shatteredzen

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I will have to take your word on the japanese history stuff, but I thought judo was only 20 or so years older than bjj.

The first school of Judo was founded in 1882, Mitsuya Maeda also referred to as "Count" Maeda was a travelling Judo practitioner who taught the Gracie's around 1917-1920, the Gracie family developed BJJ and started teaching in Brazil around 1920. Judo was a martial art that came from the Koryu schools of feudal Japan, BJJ started as Judo and slowly became its own style.
 

Steve

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The first school of Judo was founded in 1882, Mitsuya Maeda also referred to as "Count" Maeda was a travelling Judo practitioner who taught the Gracie's around 1917-1920, the Gracie family developed BJJ and started teaching in Brazil around 1920. Judo was a martial art that came from the Koryu schools of feudal Japan, BJJ started as Judo and slowly became its own style.
So 35 years. Samurai learned judo? Just doesnt sound right.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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So 35 years. Samurai learned judo? Just doesnt sound right.
Origins of KODOKAN JUDO | Judo Info

A word may be added about the legend that jujitsu was originally introduced to japan by a chinese named Chen Yuan-ping, approximately in 1644-48, or in 1627 according to the ‘Kokushoji’ document.

  • Ming Dynasty (1277 ~ 1643)

    The Ming Dynasty was the re-establishment of Chinese Sovereignty, following the Mongol conquest. During this time, some of China's martial arts began to flourish abroad, and Shuai-Chiao also made its presence felt overseas.





    Chen Yuan-Ping is credited for bringing Shuai-Chiao to Japan. His intimate knowledge of Shuai-Chiao's joint locks, controls, takedowns, and throws formed the basis of what became Jiu-Jitsu, which later evolved into Judo and Aikido.
 
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drop bear

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The exact same thing can be said for any martial art, any MMA school or camp. You get out based on what you put in. Just because someone trains in BJJ or MMA over Wing Chun does not make them competent as a fighter or able to apply any of it in the real world. You need realistic training or it doesn't matter what system you study. The fight is going to come down to the physicality and conditioning of the fighters first, with technique/training being the deciding factor if both are close to equal. For example, a sufficiently motivated Westerner with enough size and reach can do very well in Muay Thai against the often much smaller Thai fighters who just don't have the strength, reach or ability to hurt the larger Westerner, that doesn't make the Westerner better at Muay Thai, its just a huge physical advantage. We have weight classes in most fighting sports to prevent this and to promote technique over sheer physicality. Put a 5 foot seven BJJ guy in with a six foot four WC boxer and watch the BJJ not work all day long. Taken out of context, you would then mistake WC for a great system and BJJ as worthless because you had seen a slanted competition. Qi La La proves that an equal level of physicality and training in WC can produce similar results to his competitors in Muay Thai and Kickboxing. This vindicates the original argument that WC is ineffective.

We don't really know how Qi la la trains. His performance justifies his system not all of wing chun.

And so technically no. We don't automatically get out what we put in we still need a working system.

If I spend hours training diligently but the actual training is straight up garbage. (Say I trained singing for 12 hours a day ) then I will not really get any better at fighting.

We don't compare massive people from one system to tiny people in another. Unless the tiny person is kicking ***. And weight classes factor that out.
 
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Shatteredzen

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So 35 years. Samurai learned judo? Just doesnt sound right.

Judo and the other "budo" (Japanese martial arts with the "do" part) are mostly Meiji era derivatives of the older systems. Judo for example came from Ju-Jutsu, which was itself not one unified system but a term used to encompass many of the Samurai hand to hand techniques. The individual systems or styles were classified as Ryu.
 

drop bear

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If you are ever in a class and the instructor refuses to answer the question "why?" walk out, its a cult. There are schools who are interested in teaching just the forms and none of the application, even during the Eido period in Japan there were intense arguments about schools not teaching anything practical. There is quite a bit of language in the various Koryu scrolls that say the different Ryu were getting polluted as soon as twenty years after the Warring states period came to an end. I think its only right to update and modernize the styles as we go, if you truly love the art, teach the kabuki theatre version AND do the work to bring it up to date and make it functional or teach only the traditional form and then make no claims to practical application or effectiveness.

BJJ, because it has gotten so popular has had a lot of momentum and the last twenty years or so has probably seen more people working to perfect and correct the system than possibly the rest of the traditional martial arts combined. BJJ is in a place now where all the other martial arts are struggling to get to and lots of this is due to the failings of the western schools and all the crap that got circulated from the seventies onward. We all owe a debt to the Gracie family for taking the world martial arts community to task, but that doesn't mean that BJJ is a one and done school, none of them are, to be well rounded you are going to need to study BJJ in addition to some kind of stand up grappling/wrestling and then add a striking art on top of it. As of right now, there is no "do it all" system, the budo especially were never meant to be learned individually, a Samurai would have learned wrestling/Judo and Ju-Jitsu or some other hand to hand ryu and their archery/sword forms.

The open mat and BJJ tourism is responsible for BJJs success.

A vehicle for people to walk in off the street and challenge the room is necessary for development.

And the concept that super coach might just get flogged. And that isn't the worst outcome.
 

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