An interesting take on throws found in traditional Kata...
- Thread starter wab25
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isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
I don't think it's so much as the "movement turned into a throw or control technique" as that it was what the kata move was designed for, its true application just not recognized as such by many modern practitioners. It was always there, waiting to be rediscovered. The old kata hold many locks, control and takedown techniques that are representative of early karate.
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skribs163 183
Grandmaster
My opinion is still: if you need a seminar to understand what the kata is supposed to teach, then the kata isn't really doing its job anymore.
That's not to say the kata never fulfilled its role. But if the meaning has been lost, what's the point in continuing to teach/train it unless that meaning is found?
That's not to say the kata never fulfilled its role. But if the meaning has been lost, what's the point in continuing to teach/train it unless that meaning is found?
isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
According to the old masters, kata was never intended to be a "fixed' routine but holding many possibilities. Once one understands biomechanics, is aware of their physical position in relation to that of the opponent's, and has learned to recognized opportunities for entry, a lot of options open up no matter what position you're in.
isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
It allowed the unrecognized meaning to be passed down to be discovered by future curious practitioners And aside from application, kata teaches refinement of the basic techniques and principles.
skribs163 183
Grandmaster
Is it being passed down or is it being discovered? Those are two different things.
I would argue it's not being passed down the majority of the time (based on a lot of videos showing the "hidden" secrets of kata, but also by the admissions in this thread that modern Karate students don't know these applications).
If it's there to be discovered, then is it really serving the purpose? I feel things things would be discovered far more quickly from sparring than from a kata. Sparring forces innovation and ingenuity. Kata may allow it, depending on how it's trained, but it doesn't force it in the same way.
isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
Both, depending how application savvy the school's instructor is. And some styles emphasize technical execution of the form while others stress the original bunkai.
Much of the bunkai we're talking about wouldn't be allowed in sparring as it was designed to be used against non-TMA attacks.
I agree, especially in the 1960's and '70's, but as "bunkai" has sort of recently become a thing it's becoming more common.
One time my TKD friend showed me the "spin hook kick".
I told him that my long fist system also has it. I showed him the "spin floor sweep". I then said the "spin hook kick" is hidden in the "spin floor sweep".
"Hidden" means "What's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine."
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"Intention" is the key.
A traffic cop may direct traffic all his life, his job will never make him a MA person. Why? Because he is lacking "intention" when he direct traffic.
Some people said that a step can be a kick. People all walk step by step. Not everybody will be good at kicking.
When you move your arms in large circle,
Do you really has "intention" in small circle?
A traffic cop may direct traffic all his life, his job will never make him a MA person. Why? Because he is lacking "intention" when he direct traffic.
Some people said that a step can be a kick. People all walk step by step. Not everybody will be good at kicking.
When you move your arms in large circle,
Do you really has "intention" in small circle?
Marsha Larts4
Blue Belt
Awareness is the key
If you only think of intention as something that drives tactical movement,...
drop bear2 1
Sr. Grandmaster
And if you were going to learn the throw. Learn it off a throw guy. Not a kata guy.
skribs163 183
Grandmaster
I think it's possible to be both. But if 10 schools teach kata and only 1 teaches the throw, I don't think it's fair to say the kata teaches the throw.
isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
The kata may teach the throw/takedown, but the instructor may not know this. This is on the instructor (and likely his instructor), not the kata.
skribs163 183
Grandmaster
But how many instructors do or don't?
isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
Prior to the start of the 20th century, karate was taught to a select few, with kata moves' true meaning disguised to the general public. When Okinawa introduced karate to Japan they held back a lot of the "hidden" applications. Add to this the removal some of the more dangerous moves like joint locks, vital point attacks and throws so it wouldn't overlap the already established ju-jitsu and judo and to make it safer to teach in the public schools.
A few Okinawan masters taught US military stationed there starting in the mid-1950's to earn money as the American bombardment flattened most of the island. These were mostly short-term students, spending just a few years overseas and were not there long enough to get deep in the art. And the masters had no reason to give them this knowledge, anyway. The American black belts who introduced the art to the US thought karate was just block, kick and punch. True bunkai was mostly unknown to them. Students of these instructors passed down the kata as they knew them and during the 60's and 70's guys like me learned this "basic" karate. A few Westerners who spent more time in Okinawa and earned the master's trust were taught "real" karate and brought this knowledge back (as my second sensei did).
By about the early 1980's the Okinawans were more open to sharing and some Westerners had an interest in deciphering some of the movements in kata that seemed odd, now knowing another level of application existed. During the past couple of decades, the internet made this knowledge available to the general public, should they be interested and publication of books such as the Bubishi has brought it to light. Of course, a lot of crap also made its way into the web for various reasons.
So, there is a mixture of those teaching who understand bunkai, those who think they do, those who don't know but want to, and those who don't care, happy with just working out or sparring.
There are a lot of people who truly don't care about application. To them, MA is for self-cultivation, health, inner peace, culture study, ...
One time I taught Taiji to a senior group. I explained application for each and every Taiji moves in the Taiji form. One old man said, "Do you expect us to fight at our age?"
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- Thread starter
- #18
If it is there to be discovered, then it is serving part of its purpose.... it is preserving the information. Is a library preserving its purpose? Even if most people only go there for the fiction section and they never read all the books in the library? It still contains and preserves the information, even if it is not always being used.
Its other purpose is to provide a mechanism to train those ideas and refine those ideas. I have never seen a boxing match where one boxer pulls out a jump rope ands starts jumping rope. I have never seen a MMA or BJJ fight where one fighter goes to the edge of the mat and lays down, an then starts shrimping on alternate sides, by himself, until he gets to the other side. Maybe we should stop teaching people to shrimp in BJJ.... shouldn't they be able to get that far more quickly just by having them spar / roll....
