I think you're thinking of one of those, um, OTHER sites for that kind of video.:whip1:
And, yes. No parry to a direct thrust has one of my eyebrows raised as well.
Are ninja's real or just japanese urban legends
- Thread starter ninjatradingcompany
- Start date
And, yes. No parry to a direct thrust has one of my eyebrows raised as well.
SKB
Green Belt
I agree with you that there were not hidden training camps in the hills with super ninja working out all day untill they could swoop down from the hills, walk thru walls and kill from a half mile away with a blow gun.
I tried to locate your post but I have never been on the site so I could not find it. could you but a link or something?
Yes I am sure they used the concept for these reasons, but if no one could look at any cases of "ninja" doing anything the threat would die quickly would it not?
Again I agree with you.....
If what you are saying is there are no schools or training halls teaching the skills these people, the folks who the 'concept' and legend come from, used then I disagree with you. Of course there are people out there who are just plain lying when they say they know any of these skills for their own profit or self worth. Yet every MA has people who do this to the art.
I'll have to look around to see if I can find web links to the info you want but I figured these two could help you out. The first is a link to a site showing Dr. Hatsumi. I figure if the goverment of Japan is giving him an award they more then likely know he is not a fraud?
http://hatsumi.free.fr/honored-by-japanese-government.htm
I do not think the goverment of Japan would want to lose face???
The second one is a DVD I really found interesting.
http://www.shinobiwinds.com/
I'll look around and see what else I can provide you with.
I tried to locate your post but I have never been on the site so I could not find it. could you but a link or something?
Yes I am sure they used the concept for these reasons, but if no one could look at any cases of "ninja" doing anything the threat would die quickly would it not?
Again I agree with you.....
If what you are saying is there are no schools or training halls teaching the skills these people, the folks who the 'concept' and legend come from, used then I disagree with you. Of course there are people out there who are just plain lying when they say they know any of these skills for their own profit or self worth. Yet every MA has people who do this to the art.
I'll have to look around to see if I can find web links to the info you want but I figured these two could help you out. The first is a link to a site showing Dr. Hatsumi. I figure if the goverment of Japan is giving him an award they more then likely know he is not a fraud?
http://hatsumi.free.fr/honored-by-japanese-government.htm
I do not think the goverment of Japan would want to lose face???
The second one is a DVD I really found interesting.
http://www.shinobiwinds.com/
I'll look around and see what else I can provide you with.
Thanks for those links, SKB.
Needless to say, I am aware of the existence of Hatsumi-san but I did not know about his receipt of that award from the Japanese government. It surprised me a little as there is some controversy that surrounds certain published works from the esteemed gentleman, with regard to their historical accuracy. I'm guessing that the Japanese considered the positive aspects of his 'evangalism' of ninjutsu to outweigh the negative.
That documentary DVD looks enticing too - I don't know if it'll have me nodding my head or grinding my teeth but it's got to be worth a look
.
I get the feeling that we're talking at slight cross purposes in our discussion here. We actually fundamentally believe the same things I reckon, the difference being that my claim is that there was no actual, seperate, 'caste' of Ninja.
There were samurai who trained in these skills (the 'real' ones not the Hollywood smoke-bomb-and-black-mask tripe) more deeply than others but it was expected as part of a samurai's service to his lord that he would be willing to commit acts of espionage, theft or assassination as and when ordered.
Note that Japanese hstory is a notoriously difficult subject to study in as when a dominant family took over the temporary reins of power they tended to erase the written accounts of their predecessors and replace them with their own versions.
What has happened with the cult of the Ninja is that some 'scholar' (and I use the term loosely) fastened on the legends of the Ninja that inhabit the fiction of the period. This 'find' has been amplified beyond all reason by modern media to the extent now that it is almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the subject - people take what they see in films and fictional works to be some semblance of the truth and the much blander actuality of the history can't hold a candle to that.
If you're generally interested in the history of Japan, have a browse around these sites to get a sense of where to direct your research:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
Ooops, the missus is calling me to breakfast - I'll finish this up later ... back now, satisfyingly full of hot bacon and tomato sandwiches :yum:.
As to the Japancast post I referred to earlier, I can't find it either :blush: - no matter, the core of it was the same as what you yourself were saying i.e. that legends tend to have their roots in something real.
For example, Robin Hood may not have been as depicted in the story but the tale grew from a seed that was planted by the actions of a real man.
The same with the Ninja. What has passed into modern folklore bears no resemblance to what actually went on all those centuries ago but something laid the groundwork for the tales that were written that were themselves scooped up and glamourised by later generations.
To round this off, you pose the perfectly reasonable argument that without any actual acts that could be ascribed to Ninja, the use of their supposed existence as a propganda tool would soon lose it's teeth.
I concur and it's one reason why I keep going on about how there were actually no such thing as a specialised Ninja caste. In all the sources I've encountered, I've only ever found one incident that was specifically attributed to a 'Ninja' (this is the famous 'spear up the bum' assassination) - even there, it was also stated that the assassin was an enlisted ashigaru in the oppossing forces.
What kept the value of the myth alive is that assassination, theft and espionage by samurai were all too real in these centuries well before the much vaunted (but largely ignored) code of Bushido supposedly made such acts impossible for them. I like to think of Ninja as being more of a synonym for agent than anything else i.e. a soldier employed in his daimyo's service being tasked with duties outside of the everyday.
Ooops (again) - this post is not having much luck today ... I've got to get ready for iai. Hopefully I've made some sort of sense, anyhow. I'm not putting this forward in an "I'm right and you're wrong!" fashion by the way. I'm genuinely looking for an open sharing of ideas and sources.
Needless to say, I am aware of the existence of Hatsumi-san but I did not know about his receipt of that award from the Japanese government. It surprised me a little as there is some controversy that surrounds certain published works from the esteemed gentleman, with regard to their historical accuracy. I'm guessing that the Japanese considered the positive aspects of his 'evangalism' of ninjutsu to outweigh the negative.
That documentary DVD looks enticing too - I don't know if it'll have me nodding my head or grinding my teeth but it's got to be worth a look
.I get the feeling that we're talking at slight cross purposes in our discussion here. We actually fundamentally believe the same things I reckon, the difference being that my claim is that there was no actual, seperate, 'caste' of Ninja.
There were samurai who trained in these skills (the 'real' ones not the Hollywood smoke-bomb-and-black-mask tripe) more deeply than others but it was expected as part of a samurai's service to his lord that he would be willing to commit acts of espionage, theft or assassination as and when ordered.
Note that Japanese hstory is a notoriously difficult subject to study in as when a dominant family took over the temporary reins of power they tended to erase the written accounts of their predecessors and replace them with their own versions.
What has happened with the cult of the Ninja is that some 'scholar' (and I use the term loosely) fastened on the legends of the Ninja that inhabit the fiction of the period. This 'find' has been amplified beyond all reason by modern media to the extent now that it is almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the subject - people take what they see in films and fictional works to be some semblance of the truth and the much blander actuality of the history can't hold a candle to that
.If you're generally interested in the history of Japan, have a browse around these sites to get a sense of where to direct your research:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
Ooops, the missus is calling me to breakfast - I'll finish this up later ... back now, satisfyingly full of hot bacon and tomato sandwiches :yum:.
As to the Japancast post I referred to earlier, I can't find it either :blush: - no matter, the core of it was the same as what you yourself were saying i.e. that legends tend to have their roots in something real.
For example, Robin Hood may not have been as depicted in the story but the tale grew from a seed that was planted by the actions of a real man.
The same with the Ninja. What has passed into modern folklore bears no resemblance to what actually went on all those centuries ago but something laid the groundwork for the tales that were written that were themselves scooped up and glamourised by later generations.
To round this off, you pose the perfectly reasonable argument that without any actual acts that could be ascribed to Ninja, the use of their supposed existence as a propganda tool would soon lose it's teeth.
I concur and it's one reason why I keep going on about how there were actually no such thing as a specialised Ninja caste. In all the sources I've encountered, I've only ever found one incident that was specifically attributed to a 'Ninja' (this is the famous 'spear up the bum' assassination) - even there, it was also stated that the assassin was an enlisted ashigaru in the oppossing forces.
What kept the value of the myth alive is that assassination, theft and espionage by samurai were all too real in these centuries well before the much vaunted (but largely ignored) code of Bushido supposedly made such acts impossible for them. I like to think of Ninja as being more of a synonym for agent than anything else i.e. a soldier employed in his daimyo's service being tasked with duties outside of the everyday.
Ooops (again) - this post is not having much luck today ... I've got to get ready for iai. Hopefully I've made some sort of sense, anyhow. I'm not putting this forward in an "I'm right and you're wrong!" fashion by the way. I'm genuinely looking for an open sharing of ideas and sources.
SKB
Green Belt
I agree with you on what you wrote. I also think some of what could of been done by these folks back then are not known. In the same manner we do not known everything the CIA does for us now. Or in a simpler manner, when an army takes to the field and wins or loses a battle you never hear about the actions of the 'scouts'. Someone has to find the enemy, someone has to give the general information, someone is in the intelligence business and if they do their job right you never know they were there.
OP
ninjatradingcompany
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I agree with most of the post made so far. As with any historical account or fact there is always some level of exaggeration that has to come into play and of course any information passed down from generation to generation by word of mouth is bound to be completely inaccurate to some extent. I have a hard time believing there were Ninja running around in black suits with two toe shoes scaling walls and carrying vanishing powder. Where are the ancient drawings or portraits of these people? Type in the word Samurai warrior in google and you can find pages and pages of documents and ancient artistic photos documenting their existence. Type in Ninja and all you get is propaganda.
But it's a great advertising tool, even for those who know nothing about the subject, wouldn't you say?
OP
ninjatradingcompany
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I don't recall a ninja every using a mace.....lol But I am more than certian if you type mace in youtube you'll find what your looking for....
OP
ninjatradingcompany
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Nija's are one of the most intriguing sub-cultures in history. And rightfuly so. It's hard to top men running around in black suits in the dead of night, scarying the hell out of rich stuck up Samurai Warriors with magical powers and croaching tiger hidden dragon skills......lol
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
I've always found this argument a little ludicrous.
If "ninja" never existed and/or were simply a propaganda move, then there would be little if any evidence to their existance, obviously.
If "ninja" did their job, according to the general description of their tactics, then there would be little to no evidence to their existance... again, obviously.
It would seem to me that the only folks that have it right when it comes to the whole Ninja subject are the hardliners of the Takamatsuden schools that don't care about the history but train hard, with increasing resistance, to make what they're doing effective. They have sound techniques with a bunch of dirty tricks thrown into the mix. Sounds like Self Defense to me.
Of course, there are more ridiculous hobbies... such as arguing about the existance of Ninja on the internet
:uhyeah:
If "ninja" never existed and/or were simply a propaganda move, then there would be little if any evidence to their existance, obviously.
If "ninja" did their job, according to the general description of their tactics, then there would be little to no evidence to their existance... again, obviously.
It would seem to me that the only folks that have it right when it comes to the whole Ninja subject are the hardliners of the Takamatsuden schools that don't care about the history but train hard, with increasing resistance, to make what they're doing effective. They have sound techniques with a bunch of dirty tricks thrown into the mix. Sounds like Self Defense to me.
Of course, there are more ridiculous hobbies... such as arguing about the existance of Ninja on the internet
:uhyeah:
I'm thinking of starting up Mujahadeen Internet Sales, because the mujahadeen were these cool oppressed Aghan guys who fought the Soviets on camels, or something...
:uhyeah:
:uhyeah:
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
What are you going to sell? Old SKS's, camels, shemags, customized caves & spider holes?
onibaku
Yellow Belt
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I think ninjas are real. Maybe they did assasination, theft, and infiltration. they did things that the honorable samurai could not do. they work for their lords from a certain clan or a group. if ninjas never existed then who first practised ninjutsu?
Why do I get the feeling I'm banging my head against a brick wall?
Given that my rage levels are already at a stratospheric high from three days of trying to fix an intractible problem at work, I think that rather than try again to cast a little historical illumination on this issue I'll just leave it.
Eradicating sneaky-ninja and noble-samurai mythology would seem to be as fruitless a task as trying to get rid of bindweed - you can treat it with weedkiller and hoe it out as much as you like and it'll just keep coming back.
Given that my rage levels are already at a stratospheric high from three days of trying to fix an intractible problem at work, I think that rather than try again to cast a little historical illumination on this issue I'll just leave it.
Eradicating sneaky-ninja and noble-samurai mythology would seem to be as fruitless a task as trying to get rid of bindweed - you can treat it with weedkiller and hoe it out as much as you like and it'll just keep coming back.
Mujahadeen Glocks, Mujahadeen utility belts, Mujahadeen numbchucks, you get the idea...
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
Everything will be desert camo of course, right?
Bah, mujahadeen had no need for camo when they were whopping up on the Soviets...
GrandmasterP
Green Belt
Joke told to me by (British) army youngest son on home leave from active service in foreign parts.....
" Action to take if muj throws a pin at you... Run away fast! He has an armed grenade in his mouth".
" Action to take if muj throws a pin at you... Run away fast! He has an armed grenade in his mouth".
I am certain that feudal Japan had people working in an intelligence gathering capacity. Every other civilization the world has ever known had them. I don't know about the black pajama's and the gizmo's but I am sure somebody was whispering in powerful ears.
GrandmasterP
Green Belt
...........
This one's for Irene cos I can't get PM reply to work.
Youngest lad's a staff clerk in Adjutant Generals Corps and has been on casualty evacuation in the sand pit this last time, both lads were at Catterick, oldest lads out now and Youngest lad has another do to do in the warm place then he should get a cushy billet.
All respect and best wishes to you and all at Catterick,
