Apologize? I would have tackled them!

jks9199

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Priests and religious are obligated to pray several times a day in the Catholic Church; many lay people also pray the Liturgy of the Hours. From the Wikipedia page I linked above:
Traditional Roman Breviary

By the end of the fifth century, the Liturgy of the Hours was composed of seven offices, of which Compline seems to be the last to appear, since the fourth-century Apostolic Constitutions VIII, iv, 34 do not mention it in the exhortation: "Offer up your prayers in the morning, at the third hour, the sixth, the ninth, the evening, and at cock-crowing".[3]
An eight hour, Prime, was added by Benedict of Nursia in the sixth century. These eight hours are known by the following names:

  • Matins (during the night, at midnight with some), sometimes referred to as Vigils or Nocturns, or in monastic usage the Night Office; in the Breviary of Paul VI it has been replaced by the Office of Readings
  • Lauds or Dawn Prayer (at Dawn, or 3 a.m.)
  • Prime or Early Morning Prayer (First Hour = approximately 6 a.m.)
  • Terce or Mid-Morning Prayer (Third Hour = approximately 9 a.m.)
  • Sext or Midday Prayer (Sixth Hour = approximately 12 p.m.)
  • None or Mid-Afternoon Prayer (Ninth Hour = approximately 3 p.m.)
  • Vespers or Evening Prayer ("at the lighting of the lamps", generally at 6 p.m.)
  • Compline or Night Prayer (before retiring, generally at 9 p.m.)
Saint Benedict of Nursia (c. 480 – 543) is credited with having given this organization to the Liturgy of the Hours. However, his scheme was taken from that described by John Cassian, in his two major spiritual works, the Institutes and the Conferences, in which he described the monastic practices of the Desert Fathers of Egypt. Taylor Marshall has demonstrated how these Christian cycles of daily prayer derived from Jewish customs of prayer.[4]
[edit] Liturgy of the Hours of Paul VI


Benedictine monks singing Vespers on Holy Saturday


After the Second Vatican Council, Pope Paul VI promulgated a new Roman Breviary, commonly referred to as "Liturgy of the Hours". In this Breviary, the structure of the offices, the distribution of psalms and the prayers themselves were heavily modified. Prime was suppressed entirely and Matins was replaced by the new Office of Readings.
Its usage focuses on three major hours and from two to four minor hours:

  • The Officium lectionis or Office of Readings (formerly Matins), major hour
  • Lauds or Morning prayer, major hour
  • Daytime prayer, which can be one or all of:
    • Terce or Mid-Morning Prayer
    • Sext or Midday Prayer
    • None or Mid-Afternoon Prayer
  • Vespers or Evening Prayer, major hour
  • Compline or Night Prayer
 

Twin Fist

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if you consider THAT abrasive, you need a thicker skin my friend. And yes I am. Why do you think I got into martial arts?
 

5-0 Kenpo

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if you consider THAT abrasive, you need a thicker skin my friend. And yes I am. Why do you think I got into martial arts?

Says the one who constantly accuses others of making personal attacks and violating the TOS.

:roflmao:
 

granfire

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if you consider THAT abrasive, you need a thicker skin my friend. And yes I am. Why do you think I got into martial arts?

Actually I think it was one of your milder responses. Just a thought that struck me.
 

Sukerkin

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I happen to think that it was a fair question myself.

I've been staying out of this one because it triggers my anti-religion gene too strongly but I have been thinking the same thing as I have been following the thread.

I understand the strength of feeling belief in organised mythology engenders but I do not understand how someone with such beliefs feels it makes them exceptions to the same rules that everyone else has to follow.

None of what I have read so far makes that clear for me (tho' of course it may be that I have not fully read what posters have meant, in which case I'll be happy to sit corrected).
 

granfire

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I happen to think that it was a fair question myself.

I've been staying out of this one because it triggers my anti-religion gene too strongly but I have been thinking the same thing as I have been following the thread.

I understand the strength of feeling belief in organised mythology engenders but I do not understand how someone with such beliefs feels it makes them exceptions to the same rules that everyone else has to follow.

None of what I have read so far makes that clear for me (tho' of course it may be that I have not fully read what posters have meant, in which case I'll be happy to sit corrected).

If you referring to my question to Twin Fist, it was just on the tip of my tongue (or fingers) since it was actually by far not his strongest response.

As to the original incident....
you are right I suppose.
 

CanuckMA

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I happen to think that it was a fair question myself.

I've been staying out of this one because it triggers my anti-religion gene too strongly but I have been thinking the same thing as I have been following the thread.

I understand the strength of feeling belief in organised mythology engenders but I do not understand how someone with such beliefs feels it makes them exceptions to the same rules that everyone else has to follow.

None of what I have read so far makes that clear for me (tho' of course it may be that I have not fully read what posters have meant, in which case I'll be happy to sit corrected).


I've already stated that they were wrong to insist on praying standing up. For that, their fault. But wearing a tallit and teffilin for morning prayer is not optional. Why should I give up my beliefs because of your ignorance?

It would take a few minutes in a flight attendant's training schedule to instruct them in the morning prayer accoutrement of an Orthodox Jew. Jut add a half day for the 5 minute toour of the religions of the world in the training.
 

granfire

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I've already stated that they were wrong to insist on praying standing up. For that, their fault. But wearing a tallit and teffilin for morning prayer is not optional. Why should I give up my beliefs because of your ignorance?

It would take a few minutes in a flight attendant's training schedule to instruct them in the morning prayer accoutrement of an Orthodox Jew. Jut add a half day for the 5 minute toour of the religions of the world in the training.

Well, considering the chances that coming up (I am sure it will be included for the future, at least on that airline...).

However...for the future I'd be personally even more suspicious...I mean, we know the screening is crap, so what keeps a would be terrorist from using such harmless device...

Ah, yes, buying into the paranoia now.... slap me please!

It's a matter of miscommunication. I am not sure how the rules are in packing those babies into a case that can be stored in the foot room under the seat in front of you, but that would scrap the need to get up in mid flight (I mean, that's were you pack the stuff you are likely to need often during the flight...)
 

Sukerkin

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Why should I give up my beliefs because of your ignorance?

There's the disjunct that prevents a discussion on a pragmatic level.

You don't give up your beliefs because of my ignorance; that wasn't the question. I was just supporting what was asked i.e. why it was assumed that a group of peoples 'scary' behaviour in an already 'scary' space being prompted by a mythological belief system allows them more leeway than anyone else. It's a fair question.

Surely the sensible route is to follow the legal channels available to obtain exemption and until then abide by the pertinent regulations?

For me, I would not be 'freaked out' by such behaviour as I have the priviledge of actually having had a religious studies education of all the major faiths whilst at school (with a teacher who was an agnostic, thankfully, so he had no particular sect to promote). On top of which I was brought up from birth in a staunchly religious environment, achieving enlightenment of my own as I hit my 'teens and leaving such matters behind but still retaining the memories of what I was taught.

Others are not so fortunate in the plurality of their experience and react very badly when confronted with the 'weird' when they can't get away from it.
 

Archangel M

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I've already stated that they were wrong to insist on praying standing up. For that, their fault. But wearing a tallit and teffilin for morning prayer is not optional. Why should I give up my beliefs because of your ignorance?

It would take a few minutes in a flight attendant's training schedule to instruct them in the morning prayer accoutrement of an Orthodox Jew. Jut add a half day for the 5 minute toour of the religions of the world in the training.

It would also take a few minutes of the worshipers time to explain "dont freak out, but I have to pray right now. This object has a sacred script in it see?" Understanding and consideration doesn't fall entirely on one sides shoulders.
 

CanuckMA

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I am not sure how the rules are in packing those babies into a case that can be stored in the foot room under the seat in front of you, but that would scrap the need to get up in mid flight (I mean, that's were you pack the stuff you are likely to need often during the flight...)

The teffilin contains verses of Torah. They can't not be stored underfoot.
 

SensibleManiac

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"They can't not be stored underfoot."

You mean cannot be stored underfoot, right?

Either way, a little explanation on their part would have prevented much trouble.
 

shesulsa

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I have never, ever seen these contraptions. Ever. I'm 45 and I've flown before.

I've also never seen a faithful Jew block traffic or even go off to the side to say prayers in public.

I'm pretty open-minded and am the kind of person to say, 'can the boxes be x-rayed' and 'it would be more than appropriate to train flight attendants about cultural or religious paraphernalia,' etcetera.

I'm also one to say, 'if you don't want the FBI up your *** about these things you're strapping to your body during a flight, you'd better ****ing answer all questions about them and have as much discussion with the flight attendants as they need to be reasonably comfortable or at least make an informed decision as to whether the will allow the wiggle room or not.

I have to agree with Bill on this one.

And I'd prefer to err on the side of safety (and yes, perhaps ignorance) than just sit on my hands like a mook.
 

CanuckMA

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I have never, ever seen these contraptions. Ever. I'm 45 and I've flown before.

You need to be on a long haul flight (4+ hours) that takes off before sunrise.

I've also never seen a faithful Jew block traffic or even go off to the side to say prayers in public.

Because most of us pary before or after the fliht, or if we need to do it onboard, stay seated.

I'm pretty open-minded and am the kind of person to say, 'can the boxes be x-rayed' and 'it would be more than appropriate to train flight attendants about cultural or religious paraphernalia,' etcetera.

Yes, they can be x-rayed, just not opened for inspection. So much easier to educate flight crews.
 

shesulsa

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You need to be on a long haul flight (4+ hours) that takes off before sunrise.
I admit I've only been on such a flight about six or seven times over my lifetime; between here and New York, Houston (always a connected flight, usually into O'Hare or St. Louis), Hawai'i or Nashville (also a connected flight).
Because most of us pary before or after the fliht, or if we need to do it onboard, stay seated.
I assumed this - and I've seen the shawls but never the tefflin and I truly am sensitive to religious ritual ... it's just that these are sensitive times and, truthfully, when others are lighting their tennis shoe laces on fire, it's easy (I think) to be suspicious of small boxes strapped in such a fashion. Not many, I think, have seen this.
[/quote]
Yes, they can be x-rayed, just not opened for inspection. So much easier to educate flight crews.
I *still* think the flight crews should be educated to things like this - I'm rather shocked they are not, but then unexpected ignorance usually does. I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't know anything about tefflin.

I appreciate your understanding here.
 

CanuckMA

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I admit I've only been on such a flight about six or seven times over my lifetime; between here and New York, Houston (always a connected flight, usually into O'Hare or St. Louis), Hawai'i or Nashville (also a connected flight).

I assumed this - and I've seen the shawls but never the tefflin and I truly am sensitive to religious ritual ... it's just that these are sensitive times and, truthfully, when others are lighting their tennis shoe laces on fire, it's easy (I think) to be suspicious of small boxes strapped in such a fashion. Not many, I think, have seen this.

I *still* think the flight crews should be educated to things like this - I'm rather shocked they are not, but then unexpected ignorance usually does. I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't know anything about tefflin.

I appreciate your understanding here.[/quote]

The conditions have to be just right. You need to be on a flight with Orthodox Jews. It needs to take off before sunrise and be long enough to land after the latest permitted time for morning prayer. There are not many such flights.

I agree that flight crews should be instructed. If I'm about to start morning prayers, do I inform a) people next to me?, b) across the aisle? c) in front?, d) behind?, e) flight crew?

Accounting for the rudeness of some people, it would be a lot simpler for everyone if the flight crews would have an understanding of what I'm doing should queries arise.
 
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