Anyone study more than one Martial Art?

[TurtlePower]

being in LE I agree Tkd is the last thing i'd teach for dt.

What would you suggest? I want to start working on my fight endurance, and getting into shape for the PFT.

 

[pmosiun1]

Does anyone here study more than one art? If so what effect does it have on you training? Is it difficult to separate the two? Do you sometimes get mixed up in class?

I do study more than one art. It helps me understand the range of the fight. It is not difficult to separate the two art if it is in a different range. No, not really.

 

[Touch Of Death]

What would you suggest? I want to start working on my fight endurance, and getting into shape for the PFT.

All your really allowed to do is grapple; so, I would suggest you lean in that direction. Most Kenpo stuff is off limits as well; so, I am in the same boat. Just make sure striking is not the main focus of whatever art you choose, but I wouldn't avoid learning how to strike, because you may need to. I am sure undercover cops find themselves in situations where they get to strike; so, don't turn your back on it completly. You may even get to kick. Just think of this stuff on your search.
Sean

 

[jks9199]

I want to be a police officer and I know some departments teach that for defensive tactics, which is what also drew me to Yoshinkan Aikido. That and there's a dojo nearby that a friend of my dad sends his kid to. He says she likes it.

The Tokyo Riot Police do send some of their officers to the Yoshinkan Shenshusei Course. You can read something about it at the link, and there's a book called Angry White Pajamas that describes a Westerner's experience of the program.

But most police DT is only influenced by aikido, among several other programs. What typically happens is someone with a solid background in one art or another gets to a point where they can write policy or standards... and they're training influence comes into the mix. Generally, DT is not taught like a martial art; simple techniques building on gross body movements that can be learned and taught quickly, with reasonable retention and that pass a liability/safety analysis are what gets taught. Along with a lot of stuff that's not generally considered part of a martial arts curriculum, like handcuffing and arrest tactics, how to search a building, and lots more.

TKD can be a very effective martial art, though it's rarely taught that way currently in the US. If finding something that's commonly included as part of DT program is one of your goals in selecting a martial art, I'd suggest looking to Krav Maga, judo, aikido, basic boxing and wrestling, Combat Hapkido, and lots of others. See if they offer LE training certification programs, and that'll give you a clue as to whether or not the material is contributing to DT programs.

 

[jks9199]

Just remember, as a police officer, you can't kick anyone... ever.
Sean

False.

Kicks are legitimate striking tactics, as are knees, elbows, and punches. A particular technique, at a particular time, may constitute deadly force -- which simply requires appropriate justification.

However, lots of kicks are not particularly wise or practical for a cop; gun belts, boots, body armor, and the realities of uncertain footing all contribute to making kicks much higher than the thigh impractical.

All your really allowed to do is grapple; so, I would suggest you lean in that direction. Most Kenpo stuff is off limits as well; so, I am in the same boat. Just make sure striking is not the main focus of whatever art you choose, but I wouldn't avoid learning how to strike, because you may need to. I am sure undercover cops find themselves in situations where they get to strike; so, don't turn your back on it completly. You may even get to kick. Just think of this stuff on your search.
Sean

Equally false.

Striking, both empty hand and baton, are part of the force options available to a police officer. See HERE for one of the most common Use of Force models. I personally dislike "mere presence" being included as a use of force, though it is a social control on people. Striking is appropriate in a variety of situations; it's above "soft hands" techniques like simply moving someone into position. One example from my own experience: One night, one of my partners and I chase a guy until he gets himself stuck in a fence corner. He's laying on his belly, and won't give up his arms, and my partner is trying to pull one arm free; I go after the other. I pull for a moment, but that's giving him all the advantages because it's one of the strongest positions (pulling in to your center like that) you can be in. So... I deliver 3 controlled shots to his tricep... and his arm relaxes. I pull it out, and get my cuff on him. Meanwhile, my partner is still struggling to pull the other arm out...

 

[TurtlePower]

The Tokyo Riot Police do send some of their officers to the Yoshinkan Shenshusei Course. You can read something about it at the link, and there's a book called Angry White Pajamas that describes a Westerner's experience of the program.

But most police DT is only influenced by aikido, among several other programs. What typically happens is someone with a solid background in one art or another gets to a point where they can write policy or standards... and they're training influence comes into the mix. Generally, DT is not taught like a martial art; simple techniques building on gross body movements that can be learned and taught quickly, with reasonable retention and that pass a liability/safety analysis are what gets taught. Along with a lot of stuff that's not generally considered part of a martial arts curriculum, like handcuffing and arrest tactics, how to search a building, and lots more.

TKD can be a very effective martial art, though it's rarely taught that way currently in the US. If finding something that's commonly included as part of DT program is one of your goals in selecting a martial art, I'd suggest looking to Krav Maga, judo, aikido, basic boxing and wrestling, Combat Hapkido, and lots of others. See if they offer LE training certification programs, and that'll give you a clue as to whether or not the material is contributing to DT programs.

Thanks for the info.

 

[MJS]

What would you suggest? I want to start working on my fight endurance, and getting into shape for the PFT.

I would suggest the following:

BJJ/MMA, or any other grappling art, JJJ, Small Circle JJ, the Filipino Martial Arts, Krav Maga. Why those? The principles that they use are pretty much straight forward, simple and to the point. Additionally, the locking/controlling will be important.

Just remember, as a police officer, you can't kick anyone... ever.
Sean

All your really allowed to do is grapple; so, I would suggest you lean in that direction. Most Kenpo stuff is off limits as well; so, I am in the same boat. Just make sure striking is not the main focus of whatever art you choose, but I wouldn't avoid learning how to strike, because you may need to. I am sure undercover cops find themselves in situations where they get to strike; so, don't turn your back on it completly. You may even get to kick. Just think of this stuff on your search.
Sean

JKS pretty much echoed my thoughts. The DTs, that I did when I worked in Corrections, consisted of much more than grappling. Much like a civilian, the situation will usually determine what is done.

 

[MJS]

It all depends on what your definition of TKD is. If you are thinking what you see in the Olympics or what is taught to kids then I see your point. However if you are talking about the stuff that the Korean military does or what you get taught at 4th or 5th Dan level (at least in our dojang) then I don't see your point.

Most of the SD stuff taught is pretty brutal. Most of the counter to any aggression are killing techniques and would land most in jail. Even when practicing some of these techniques I will ask do we really want to do it this way? Then I am shown how to apply it to contain or hold someone until help arrives. But the way we are taught is not nice and most people don't even want to practice it because it hurts and hurts bad.

I am all for being flipped, punched (even in the face), taken down to the ground, and even joint locked. But this stuff is none of that. It is all soft area spot strikes and grabs first finished with some face smashing off the ground, windpipe crushing, neck breaking type technique. And it is all done in the first 1 or 2 moves. There is no playing around.

When we practice we are told to use some force and get use to the pain as we will build a tolerance. This stuff hurts an hurts bad, even if not done at real speed. Yes we may now have a better tolerance that any mugger or attacker but in the class when everyone has close to the same tolerance you just up the ante a bit and still pain, and not the kind you go and put some ice on. When you have dug your fingers into my lymph nodes of the neck area ice does not help.

Again no kids or color belts (in our dojang) get to practice or even see this stuff. Only instructor level and any high ranking BB are allowed to take this class, not many. Oh and yes our GM use to teach some PD officers this as well.

I may be wrong, but I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that I wouldn't imagine anything different would be taught. Then again, I'd also say the goals of the Military and a PD, would differ. AFAIK, TKD is not taught to any PDs in CT.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I may be wrong, but I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that I wouldn't imagine anything different would be taught. Then again, I'd also say the goals of the Military and a PD, would differ. AFAIK, TKD is not taught to any PDs in CT.

I know Im in another country , but I train with a homocide detective who deals, and has dealt with some pretty bad stuff on a day to day basis (he is regularly forced to defend himself aginst some pretty nasty people), and he is a 4th dan tkd and has no worries at all using what he has been taught in tkd in his job. In saying that, we do not teach olympic style tkd but it does show you cant just rule out tkd altogether for these purposes.

 

[MJS]

I know Im in another country , but I train with a homocide detective who deals, and has dealt with some pretty bad stuff on a day to day basis (he is regularly forced to defend himself aginst some pretty nasty people), and he is a 4th dan tkd and has no worries at all using what he has been taught in tkd in his job. In saying that, we do not teach olympic style tkd but it does show you cant just rule out tkd altogether for these purposes.

I can't speak for whats taught in other countries, however, as I said, I have yet to hear of a PD in CT., the state in which I live, that uses TKD as a method for training its officers. Boxing, MMA/BJJ, and various Jujitsu related arts is usually what is taught.

One of my teachers has worked for the Dept. Of Corrections here in CT., for over 20yrs. He's currently a Capt. and works in the investigations unit. Part of his job also entails being involved with the training the officers receive, as well as the Parole officers. I have not heard him mention TKD during any of our chats about job related things. I do plan on seeing him this week, and will make a point to ask, and get back to you.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Yes I do.
Okinawa Shorin Ryu Karatedo and Ryukyu Kobujutsu (finally studying kobudo at a much deeper level)

 

[Grenadier]

I currently study Shotokan Karate and Yamani Ryu Kobudo.

I find that as you train in one art, there will be various mechanical understandings that will transfer to the other art as well. People who understand using the lower body to drive the upper body in Karate, can certainly quickly apply the same principles to Yamani Ryu Kobudo, since most of the power is generated with the lower body.

However, there are some aspects that require attention. For example, you rarely use moto-dachi in Shotokan Karate, yet it's a very common stance in the Yamani Ryu system. For some of your less advanced students, you might find them slipping from zenkutsu dachi to moto dachi during Karate practice, and that's something that must be cleared up as soon as possible.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I currently study Shotokan Karate and Yamani Ryu Kobudo.

I find that as you train in one art, there will be various mechanical understandings that will transfer to the other art as well. People who understand using the lower body to drive the upper body in Karate, can certainly quickly apply the same principles to Yamani Ryu Kobudo, since most of the power is generated with the lower body.

However, there are some aspects that require attention. For example, you rarely use moto-dachi in Shotokan Karate, yet it's a very common stance in the Yamani Ryu system. For some of your less advanced students, you might find them slipping from zenkutsu dachi to moto dachi during Karate practice, and that's something that must be cleared up as soon as possible.

We must not forget that the upper body is just as responsible for punch delivery as the lower half. It may start down there, but you need to pay attention to what your elbow is doing, your shoulder, and your fist.
sean

 

[bushidomartialarts]

My main art is Kenpo. Been at that 16 years now. Over those years I've gotten rank in Goju Shorei, Judo, Jiujutsu. I've trained seriously in kickboxing, boxing, capoeria, aikido and arnis. Taken seminars in Kosho Ruy, Tae Kwon Do, Ninjutsu and all manner of police combatives.

But I always come back to Kenpo. Not because Kenpo is best, but because all the other arts are there to help me master the one I've committed to. A concert pianist will study clarinet and cello, not because he wants to change instruments, but because of what those equally fine instruments can teach him about music in general, and about the piano in particular.

Just my 3 cents Canadian.

 

[MJS]

As promised, I spoke with my inst., last night. During our Arnis lesson, I asked him about the departments DT program. No one art is used. In other words, they do not draw just from Kenpo, Krav Maga, BJJ, etc., but use a series of basic strikes that can be found in pretty much every art. There is some basic ground work, which does come from BJJ.

I asked about officers who have martial arts training. You can't extract that out of them, so yes, it is possible to fall back on that training. However, no matter what you do, you still need to be justified in doing so.

 

[searcher]

Yes. Enough to make my brain hurt.

 

[ronagle]

Does anyone here study more than one art? If so what effect does it have on you training? Is it difficult to separate the two? Do you sometimes get mixed up in class? Thinking about picking up Tae Kwon Do and I'm also trying to get back into Yoshinkan Aikido (no dojo locally, but I'm planning on saving up some money to go to Japan.)

No, it is a matter of finding the flow, and gives you the benefit of the unexpected.

 

[Laus]

I studied karate, kobudo and tai chi, with forays into jodo, for many years. I found that they complemented each other nicely and I often discovered something about one while practicing another that wasn't obvious before. I am also of the school that believes it is valuable to study the arts from multiple perspectives, both for the increased arsenal it can provide and for the constant challenge of trying something you are totally unaccustomed to.

It is difficult to focus intensly on mulitple arts at one time though, so whenever a test was approaching the other arts would have to take a back seat until the test was complete. This was fairly easy because these arts were all taught in the same school by the same Sensei, so I didn't have to explain myself.

Right now I train under two Senseis, one in Karate and one in Aikido. I just returned to Karate after a year off though and find I'm having trouble keeping up with my desired schedule, so out of respect for my Aikido Sensei (who I have been training under longer) when I need to take an unplanned rest day I take it on karate night, knowing that soon enough I'll be up to the pace I was accustomed to before my hiatus.

Training multiple arts can be very challenging if you want to do them all well, requiring longer hours per day and more days per week, and a lot more sacrifices in personal time. If you can't maintain a certain focus you run the risk of not being able to do any of hem well. On the other hand, if you succeed at doing them well you can do wonders for your personal skill set.

It's also important to consider who you train under, as there are plenty of fragile egos out there who don't take kindly to their students having more than one Sensei. I am fortunate that my Senseis do not suffer from this particular neurosis.

There are many advantages to training multiple arts, but for me the greatest value is that it keeps me humble. As someone with several dan ranks under her belt I find trying a new art every now and then an invaluable lesson in humilty. Its easy to get cocky when you are really good at one thing, which I have certainly been guilty of, so I find it important to remind myself that no matter what I think I can pull off there will always be someone out there with a countermove I never even considered.

 

[ratman]

Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do & Israeli combatives. No problem keeping them seperate & they flow well together.

 

[scottie]

It all depends on what your definition of TKD is. If you are thinking what you see in the Olympics or what is taught to kids then I see your point. However if you are talking about the stuff that the Korean military does or what you get taught at 4th or 5th Dan level (at least in our dojang) then I don't see your point.

Most of the SD stuff taught is pretty brutal. Most of the counter to any aggression are killing techniques and would land most in jail. Even when practicing some of these techniques I will ask do we really want to do it this way? Then I am shown how to apply it to contain or hold someone until help arrives. But the way we are taught is not nice and most people don't even want to practice it because it hurts and hurts bad.

I am all for being flipped, punched (even in the face), taken down to the ground, and even joint locked. But this stuff is none of that. It is all soft area spot strikes and grabs first finished with some face smashing off the ground, windpipe crushing, neck breaking type technique. And it is all done in the first 1 or 2 moves. There is no playing around.

When we practice we are told to use some force and get use to the pain as we will build a tolerance. This stuff hurts an hurts bad, even if not done at real speed. Yes we may now have a better tolerance that any mugger or attacker but in the class when everyone has close to the same tolerance you just up the ante a bit and still pain, and not the kind you go and put some ice on. When you have dug your fingers into my lymph nodes of the neck area ice does not help.

Again no kids or color belts (in our dojang) get to practice or even see this stuff. Only instructor level and any high ranking BB are allowed to take this class, not many. Oh and yes our GM use to teach some PD officers this as well.

I have just entered both my 10th year of Law Enforcement. (patrol and School resource have been my two assignments) and 20th year in The Martial Arts. (karate) Karate has quite frankly not been of as much use to me as high school wrestling has been.

I was just at the Police academy last week. I am workout partners with the DT instructor at the police academy. I will tell you all they teach now is joint and ground fighting.

They taught us kicking and punching (hard hand tech.to be used just before deadly force) as well as wrist, joint locks and take downs. (open hand tech. also the most used in the real world of LE). In 10 years the only strike I have used is a block. We have evolved into a world of liability. Everyone is Law Suit scared. so they come out with tools Like the Taser and Asp. that will back their tool as long as they are used correctly. My advise to you would be. To train what you enjoy no matter what it is. They will teach you what they want you to learn, then tell you to use it only after your Taser, Pepper, and Asp baton does not work. Good luck with Law Enforcement it is a fun job. I don't know where you live but here almost everyone makes more than cops, and I work at a good Department that pays well compared. It is a calling not a job. I would say that if you want to train TKD go for it. But BJJ and Aikido type style would be the most useful. in this day in Law Enforcement.

Also Don't get caught up in that we train Law Enforcement Crap. everyone trains the police or military of some type. I know cops that train in yoga and Tai chi does not mean it would be effective in the streets as a cop and then again it works for them. People just use that because that gives them some validity, but really I think most arts can say they trained the police.

To repeat myself for about the 19th time in this reply (i need Sleep) Just learn what they train you in School. then when you get out of school. someone will tell you to forget everything you have learned and they will teach you the street way to police.