Anybody ever really spar on a table?

[Xue Sheng]

While some punches are less strong than others, I think you find a person capable of moving with such speed also capable of delivering with great force as well.

I would always advertise master of technique, then speed of execution, then power. I understand if others would advise differently, but this has worked for me.

Not saying they can't have both speed and force because I know they can. It was just the way you posted made it sound as if you were saying speed will overcome force and/or force was not necessary if yuo have speed.

 

[Zenjael]

Oh no, my apology. Speed can always be overcome with enough force. But the more speed, will require the more force of course. It's just physics at that point

 

[mook jong man]

True and I have no issue with that, it was was the "Speed over comes force" bit I was referring to. Speed is good but speed without force is not worth a whole heck of a lot.

That's right , if you have a crappy stance then it doesn't really matter how fast you are .

Everything you do will lack power and you will probably just end up bouncing off the opponent.

 

[elder999]

Oh no, my apology. Speed can always be overcome with enough force. But the more speed, will require the more force of course. It's just physics at that point

Uh...no, that's not physics-there's a German word for it, though:

Gobbledygook.

F=ma.

"Force" is mass multiplied by acceleration.

Increase mass, and force increases.

Increase acceleration-that speed that you're fond of-and you increase force.

You can't increase force without increasing either of these.

You can't effectively increase your own mass without a weapon-though you can effectively increase the amount of force by mass delivered to a point, via hand or foot formation and delivery surface:knee, heel, palm heel, edge of hand, forefist-each is essentially changing the "mass part of the equation," but that remains constant for each weapon (and the mechanics of putting body weight behind it: structure or stance, which varies greatly from style to style)

Really, though, the only thing you can increase is acceleration.

More speed is more force.

Period.

That said, though, a flying knee doesn't have to have more speed than say, a forefist strike-it just has to get there first-with far more mass behind it.

 

[Zenjael]

You may have mistook me, or I was not clear, my apologies. I mean that it requires more force to halt or interrupt the speed.

 

[simplewc101]

speed is velocity which is not acceleration. its F=ma , not v=rt. furthermore, J=delta p/t = m delta v/t, where J is impulse and p is momentum.
you can hit me with as much force as you want, but if your m delta v = ma is too small, aka if your change in momentum is not large, it would feel like a wall pushing me very very slowly and i wouldn't care. it's very important to note the impulse which is how much momentum is applied over time. the last thing you should think about is P=F/A where P is pressure and A is area.. smaller area gives you more pressure.

 

[simplewc101]

never fought on a table, but i imagine its good for your game when you need to stand your ground, back against the wall, bunch of people behind you, and generally just being comfortable with fists flying at close range and dealing with what comes. you can't always take a step backwards

 

[elder999]

speed is velocity which is not acceleration. its F=ma , not v=rt. furthermore, J=delta p/t = m delta v/t, where J is impulse and p is momentum.
you can hit me with as much force as you want, but if your m delta v = ma is too small, aka if your change in momentum is not large, it would feel like a wall pushing me very very slowly and i wouldn't care. it's very important to note the impulse which is how much momentum is applied over time. the last thing you should think about is P=F/A where P is pressure and A is area.. smaller area gives you more pressure.

,
1) He started it with "force." I'm a physicist, but I'm an engineer first, and was just trying to keep it simple.

2) If that "wall" of force pushing you very slowly is, say, Brock Lesnar, you might just care. :lfao:

 

[simplewc101]

understandable, just trying to K.I.S.S. . I was just thinking that since we started talking about force and all that, that I would give all the pertinent info regarding the physics of a punch.
If brock lesnar was pushing me very slowly with his fist i would do one of two things:
1):lfao:
2)RUN! its brock f king lesnar!!

 

[Zenjael]

Force without momentum has no force, just as speed without force has no speed. They do not conflict, but impart power upon one another.

 

[elder999]

]Force without momentum has no force, just as speed without force has no speed. They do not conflict, but impart power upon one another.

View attachment 16194

 

[jks9199]

Force without momentum has no force, just as speed without force has no speed. They do not conflict, but impart power upon one another.

More gobbledygook. You can't use words to mean whatever you want, unless you don't want to communicate. Force, momentum, and speed all have specific definitions as well as somewhat different "common use" definitions.

 

[elder999]

More gobbledygook. You can't use words to mean whatever you want, unless you don't want to communicate. Force, momentum, and speed all have specific definitions as well as somewhat different "common use" definitions.

Indeed. Thus the crepe de lepus. :lol:

[SIZE=-1]Newton's 2nd Law tells us that force = mass x acceleration ( F = ma ). Since acceleration is just how velocity changes over time, we can write this as

F = m * v/t

Multiply both sides by time to arrive at

F t = m v



Thus we see that the momentum conferred by force is equal to that force multiplied by the time it is applied.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Momentum measures the 'motion content' of an object, and is based on the product of an object's mass and velocity. Momentum doubles, for example, when velocity doubles. Similarly, if two objects are moving with the same velocity, one with twice the mass of the other also has twice the momentum.

Force, on the other hand, is the push or pull that is applied to an object to change its momentum.[/SIZE]

I sit here, though, with the rays of the morning sun, streaming through my window and onto my shoulder-a collection of photons that took around 8.5 minutes to arrive, traveling about as fast as anything can. They're thought by most physicists to have no mass, though, so do they have momentum? Or even force?

I mean, I'm not being knocked out of my chair by sunlight, am I? :lfao:

Now, I think I have a pretty clear understanding of what all this has to do with striking in general, and "sparring on a table" in particular, but I'll leave it to those with a deeper understanding of wing chun (though not necessarily its physics) to hash on about.....though perhaps not those who clearly don't understand striking, physics or wing chun.....:lol:

 

[yak sao]

I don't know if you can make heads or tails from the photos, but this is what we use in our group to train chi sau from time to time.
It is very useful if I have someone who wants to step back instead of pivot, also, it is good for making sure they have proper footwork as they step in to attack....( in our lineage we step in one foot behind the other)

Its an 8 foot 6X6 postthat I placed into 2 10 X10 blocks of wood.The blocks are moveable so it adjusts for different arm lengths of students.
Also is great for training the CK and BT forms

 

[jks9199]

I've done something similar to help students visualize some relationships -- though only with tape on the floor. The wooden structure is interesting...

 

[yak sao]

I've done something similar to help students visualize some relationships -- though only with tape on the floor. The wooden structure is interesting...

I've done the tape on the floor thing too. What I found is it's too easy to deviate from it.
By using the wooden beams, it forces you into proper footwork, plus it causes you to sink your weight down which makes you root your stance.
Plus, admit it....doesn't it look like something cool from the Shaolin Temple?

 

[Xue Sheng]

 

[jks9199]

I've done the tape on the floor thing too. What I found is it's too easy to deviate from it.
By using the wooden beams, it forces you into proper footwork, plus it causes you to sink your weight down which makes you root your stance.
Plus, admit it....doesn't it look like something cool from the Shaolin Temple?

Yep... very cool. But in my style, I want them to step off the lines. They just demonstrate the relative positions.

 

[simplewc101]

[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]I sit here, though, with the rays of the morning sun, streaming through my window and onto my shoulder-a collection of photons that took around 8.5 minutes to arrive, traveling about as fast as anything can. They're thought by most physicists to have no mass, though, so do they have momentum? Or even force?

I mean, I'm not being knocked out of my chair by sunlight, am I? :lfao:

Surely you know about particle-wave duality and quantum physics elder! asking questions about things you already know

 

[simplewc101]

I don't know if you can make heads or tails from the photos, but this is what we use in our group to train chi sau from time to time.
It is very useful if I have someone who wants to step back instead of pivot, also, it is good for making sure they have proper footwork as they step in to attack....( in our lineage we step in one foot behind the other)

Its an 8 foot 6X6 postthat I placed into 2 10 X10 blocks of wood.The blocks are moveable so it adjusts for different arm lengths of students.
Also is great for training the CK and BT forms

Not a bad idea! you'll obviously know when you deviate from the centerline without even looking down.
Kinda gives the table effect a little bit, just much easier to get back on
When we do chi sau we sometimes mentally envision a wall behind us and strive to not give up one inch to the other person. We pretend there is a line between us that we WONT let you cross, that's OUR area biach!