Words eaten - roundhouse kick with ball of the foot

[skribs]

One of the things I never understood is how so many people can claim they train roundhouse kicks with the ball of the foot. I always considered it to be too dangerous for your toes. Especially for someone like me who's toes are not that flexible. But I also wasn't sure of the best way to break boards with a roundhouse kick, because kicking with the instep presents other issues (the fragility of the instep compared to other striking implements).

I watched a video today on breaking with a roundhouse kick. The kicker in the video demonstrated both a ball-of-the-foot kick and an instep kick. With the ball-of-the-foot kick, he did something I hadn't imagined when I tried to picture kicking a board with the ball of my foot: he had the board at a 45-degree angle instead of perpendicular to him. That gave his toes enough clearance to avoid injury.

With the instep kick, he actually aimed with his ankle, so there was as much shin as there was instep. I noticed this in a few other videos as well.

At my old school, we rarely broke with a roundhouse kick. If we did, it was usually either a demonstration board, or we would be recommended to wear an instep protector to protect our instep.

It's not often anymore that I learn new things about kicks. Today I learned two.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Any chance you could share the video?

 

[skribs]

Any chance you could share the video?

Siiiiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhhhh....

Here you go:

 

[drop bear]

Ball of the foot will dig in to the body. Like a teep pretty much, but at a weird angle.

 

[isshinryuronin]

One of the things I never understood is how so many people can claim they train roundhouse kicks with the ball of the foot. I always considered it to be too dangerous for your toes. Especially for someone like me who's toes are not that flexible. But I also wasn't sure of the best way to break boards with a roundhouse kick, because kicking with the instep presents other issues (the fragility of the instep compared to other striking implements).

I watched a video today on breaking with a roundhouse kick. The kicker in the video demonstrated both a ball-of-the-foot kick and an instep kick. With the ball-of-the-foot kick, he did something I hadn't imagined when I tried to picture kicking a board with the ball of my foot: he had the board at a 45-degree angle instead of perpendicular to him. That gave his toes enough clearance to avoid injury.

With the instep kick, he actually aimed with his ankle, so there was as much shin as there was instep. I noticed this in a few other videos as well.

At my old school, we rarely broke with a roundhouse kick. If we did, it was usually either a demonstration board, or we would be recommended to wear an instep protector to protect our instep.

It's not often anymore that I learn new things about kicks. Today I learned two.

It was many years in karate until I even heard of doing a roundhouse kick with the instep rather than the ball of the foot. I was taught to use the ball and practiced on the heavy bag with it, without breaking any toes. I know nothing about breaking boards with kicks, but here are my thoughts on it in fighting:

According to my early sensei, Master Shimabuku told him it, like front kicks, should be done with the foot pulled up, contracted, as to resemble a hammer. When pounding a nail, a straight rod is not as effective as a hammer with the striking portion at a 90-degree angle from the handle (or leg). These are the advantages as I see them:

1. The range is increased by the length of distance from the instep to the ball, about 4-5 inches.
2. The impact area is smaller, concentrating the force providing more penetration.
3. The opponent can block the instep kick by blocking the ankle even at close range. The ball kick will still land.
4. Since the hammer has been around for a while it must be an effective tool for transmitting force. Not being a physicist or mechanical engineer, I can only conclude this is also true of a hammer-like kick.
5. Last but not least, less chance of catching an elbow on the instep, one of my least favorite things in sparring.

(Old Okinawan method used the actual big toes as the impact point, but this required special training resulting in some disfigurement.)

Yes, I know the instep/shin kick is used in other arts with effectiveness despite the above listed points. What are the advantages to the instep kick over the ball?

 

[Same Trick]

As for traditional karate there’s the traditional katas as reference of technique curriculum, closest to a roundhouse kick is the - mikazuki keri/ crescent kick - the sole of the foot is what hits the target

 

[skribs]

It was many years in karate until I even heard of doing a roundhouse kick with the instep rather than the ball of the foot. I was taught to use the ball and practiced on the heavy bag with it, without breaking any toes. I know nothing about breaking boards with kicks, but here are my thoughts on it in fighting:

According to my early sensei, Master Shimabuku told him it, like front kicks, should be done with the foot pulled up, contracted, as to resemble a hammer. When pounding a nail, a straight rod is not as effective as a hammer with the striking portion at a 90-degree angle from the handle (or leg). These are the advantages as I see them:

1. The range is increased by the length of distance from the instep to the ball, about 4-5 inches.
2. The impact area is smaller, concentrating the force providing more penetration.
3. The opponent can block the instep kick by blocking the ankle even at close range. The ball kick will still land.
4. Since the hammer has been around for a while it must be an effective tool for transmitting force. Not being a physicist or mechanical engineer, I can only conclude this is also true of a hammer-like kick.
5. Last but not least, less chance of catching an elbow on the instep, one of my least favorite things in sparring.

(Old Okinawan method used the actual big toes as the impact point, but this required special training resulting in some disfigurement.)

Yes, I know the instep/shin kick is used in other arts with effectiveness despite the above listed points. What are the advantages to the instep kick over the ball?

I actually disagree with most of these points.

1. The range is shorter in a roundhouse kick, because the foot is bent. The range is longer on a front or side kick than using the heel.
2. Agree with this point.
3. Disagree that it's wise to block the ankle. The ankle is still near the end of the lever arm and is still going to hurt (and is what broke the board in the "instep" version of the kick I described in the OP and in the linked video). In any roundhouse kick, it's better to block at the thigh, catch the kick, or avoid being hit by it entirely.
4. The foot is not more heavily weighted than the leg in the same way the hammerhead is more heavily weighted than the handle.
5. Replace catching an elbow on the instep with catching an elbow on the toe, similar problem.

We mainly use instep in TKD because of the sport. It's literally the only way to score points with a roundhouse kick, especially with electronic sparring gear.

 

[skribs]

As for traditional karate there’s the traditional katas as reference of technique curriculum, closest to a roundhouse kick is the - mikazuki keri/ crescent kick - the sole of the foot is what hits the target

Roundhouse kick and crescent kick are very different kicks.

 

[Same Trick]

Roundhouse kick and crescent kick are very different kicks.

yes sure mechanicaly it’s different but purpose wise same’ish, I did point out “traditional” karate, the ones that came out from Okinawa that basically were kata based.
the mawashi-keri(roundhouse kick) came with the Japanized karate, so a “quite recent” experimental development inspired from foreign lands.
I pretty surely guess the Korean taekkyon originally also had the crescent kick as a “roundhouse” kick.
Traditional Chinese wushu do the crescent kick for “lack” of a roundhouse kick.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Roundhouse kick and crescent kick are very different kicks.

There is no universal terminology. The Chang Hon system uses "Turing Kick" and "Side Turning Kick" (More on this in another post. )Why is it called "Roundhouse" just as what is also called a hook punch done in wide circular motion is called "Roundhouse" Picture someone with both hands up in front of their face protecting their head "i.e." "The House" that kick or punch goes around - in from the side - around the house or roundhouse.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The Chang Hon system has a "Turing Kick " with opponent to the "Side Font" and this is easier to use the Ball of foot than the "Side turning kick" which has opponent target surface that requires a 180 degree turn. Picture yourself in the center of a clock dial with left foot at the center and right foot back Opponent would be to the side font or at about the 2:00 mark , Below is link to a pattern which (at about 40 seconds ) has the lead leg shift to the side so you can use the turning kick to someone initially directly to the front

 

[Earl Weiss]

Same pattern better angles kick examples at about7 and 8 minutes

 

[Earl Weiss]

On another note for use of the ball of the foot or really the toes with foot gear or shoes - This was something Bill Superfoot Wallace used to go around my house (At a seminar) and kick me in the head when I thought my my guard protected me . Took me a while to figure out he keeps the foot bent at 90 degrees and in sparring for this kick we would usually point the toes to kick with instep. His foot position coupled with extra distance the foot protection gave him allowed that foot to go a good 8" or so past my rear hand guard.

 

[skribs]

There is no universal terminology. The Chang Hon system uses "Turing Kick" and "Side Turning Kick" (More on this in another post. )Why is it called "Roundhouse" just as what is also called a hook punch done in wide circular motion is called "Roundhouse" Picture someone with both hands up in front of their face protecting their head "i.e." "The House" that kick or punch goes around - in from the side - around the house or roundhouse.

But it's very clear what kick he was talking about, and the kick he's describing and the kick I'm describing are very different kicks.

 

[HighKick]

Roundhouse kick and crescent kick are very different kicks.

And don't forget there are at least two varieties of crescent kicks, initiating from the same(ish) position but moving in different directions and using different sides of the foot for the strike. Usage has Much to do with fighting position.

 

[skribs]

And don't forget there are at least two varieties of crescent kicks, initiating from the same(ish) position but moving in different directions and using different sides of the foot for the strike. Usage has Much to do with fighting position.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure he was talking about the outside-to-inside kick based on his description.

 

[HighKick]

I actually disagree with most of these points.

1. The range is shorter in a roundhouse kick, because the foot is bent. The range is longer on a front or side kick than using the heel.
2. Agree with this point.
3. Disagree that it's wise to block the ankle. The ankle is still near the end of the lever arm and is still going to hurt (and is what broke the board in the "instep" version of the kick I described in the OP and in the linked video). In any roundhouse kick, it's better to block at the thigh, catch the kick, or avoid being hit by it entirely.
4. The foot is not more heavily weighted than the leg in the same way the hammerhead is more heavily weighted than the handle.
5. Replace catching an elbow on the instep with catching an elbow on the toe, similar problem.

We mainly use instep in TKD because of the sport. It's literally the only way to score points with a roundhouse kick, especially with electronic sparring gear.

I believe what @isshinryuronin is trying to point out is that when using the ball of the foot with the circular motion of a roundhouse kick there is a greater chance of 'penetration'. This is the 'longer' range being referred to. I fully agree there is more Linear reach with the kick when the foot is extended and top of the foot makes the strike.

I fully agree with your #4 assertion. The weighting is completely opposite of a conventional hammer (tool). The physics are completely backwards. This is why the initial part of a roundhouse and use of the knee, hips, and shoulders/torso are So important to generate power. The quad muscle also plays a big factor in the latter part of the kick.

 

[HighKick]

One of the things I never understood is how so many people can claim they train roundhouse kicks with the ball of the foot. I always considered it to be too dangerous for your toes. Especially for someone like me who's toes are not that flexible. But I also wasn't sure of the best way to break boards with a roundhouse kick, because kicking with the instep presents other issues (the fragility of the instep compared to other striking implements).

I watched a video today on breaking with a roundhouse kick. The kicker in the video demonstrated both a ball-of-the-foot kick and an instep kick. With the ball-of-the-foot kick, he did something I hadn't imagined when I tried to picture kicking a board with the ball of my foot: he had the board at a 45-degree angle instead of perpendicular to him. That gave his toes enough clearance to avoid injury.

With the instep kick, he actually aimed with his ankle, so there was as much shin as there was instep. I noticed this in a few other videos as well.

At my old school, we rarely broke with a roundhouse kick. If we did, it was usually either a demonstration board, or we would be recommended to wear an instep protector to protect our instep.

It's not often anymore that I learn new things about kicks. Today I learned two.

They are both very valid kicks and great to have in your 'toolbox'. In a nutshell, if I want to tag someone as you typically do in WT style sparring, top of the foot is the way to go. If I want to do real damage, like a kick to the jawbone, ribs or side of the knee, etc... ball of the foot every time.
Both kicks take practice and body English to get the impact and penetration desired. To me, the ball of the foot is a more deliberate and committed kick and generally involves turning/rotating the upper body more whereas the top of the foot is a 'speedier' kick and can return to the initial, return leg position if needed Much easier.

 

[HighKick]

Siiiiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhhhh....

Here you go:

Did anyone notice he didn't really use the instep but more the bend of the ankle and the lower shin?

 

[skribs]

Did anyone notice he didn't really use the instep but more the bend of the ankle and the lower shin?

I said that in the OP.