Another black eye for Taekwondo

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well that was a real shame. The athlete and his coach are banned and like Rich I agree they should be fined and charges pressed. That type of action is just not acceptable.

One thing I will say though is that I do not hold the entire Olympic Tae Kwon Do movement responsible for one athletes actions. That athlete and his coach bear the responsibility.

 

[Tez3]

Now, if only that had happened with Canadian Ivett Gonda. Yeah, I admit, I'm a little biased because she's not only Canadian, but a BC girl. But she still should have gotten at least a couple of points.

That's a shame! The BBC only showed a little of TKD and only when a British player was involved so we saw none of other bouts. The British lad that was involved in not having his strikes counted was only 17 and was distraught, he came off saying what did he have to do to score. The commentators said oh well, he'll be fired up for the London Games, but that's 4 years away and what if he's so discouraged he gives up the sport? What a loss. If he feels giving his all is literally pointless that is going to affect a great many would be competitiors.
Britain did well in the Olympics, our most gold medals for a hundred years just about, all the other sports are looking forward now to a resurgance of interest in those sports that did well,sailing, cycling, rowing,swimming and boxing. Good efforts in the BMX and gymnastics has got people talking and interest is building. Sports commentators are urging youngsters to go out and try these sports, to get involved. With the Games coming to London there is hope that we'll field a bigger and better Team GB than ever, it will be an awful shame if TKD can't be one of those sports or is seen as not being worth bothering about. This is the time to get people into training, while interest is still there. How many more Jamaican's are going to be trying to be sprinters now after that amazing 100m and 200m? TKD ( or the WTF?) is going to have to find a way to present their sport as equally exciting and fair if it is to survive.
I hope it works out.

 

[kwaichang]

I DIDN'T SEE THIS ALREADY POSTED AND SO HERE IS THE WHOLE STORY:

Cuban Taekwondo Champ Banned for Life After Kicking Referee

Sunday , August 24, 2008

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BEIJING —
A Cuban taekwondo athlete and his coach were banned for life after Angel Matos kicked the referee in the face following his bronze-medal match disqualification.

Cuban coach Leudis Gonzalez offered no apology for Matos' actions during the men's over-80 kg match.
Matos was winning 3-2, with 1:02 in the second round, when he fell to the mat after being hit by his opponent, Kazakhstan's Arman Chilmanov. He was sitting awaiting medical attention when he was disqualified for taking too much injury time. Fighters get one minute, and Matos was disqualified when his time ran out.
Matos angrily questioned the call, pushed a judge, then pushed and kicked referee Chakir Chelbat of Sweden. Matos then spat on the floor and was escorted out.
"He was too strict," Gonzalez said, referring to the decision to disqualify Matos. Afterward, he charged the match was fixed, accusing the Kazakhs of offering him money.
"This is a strong violation of the spirit of taekwondo and the Olympic Games. The sanctions are the following and are effective immediately: Lifetime ban of the coach and athlete in all championships sanctioned by the [World taekwondo Federation] and at the same time, all records of this athlete at the Beijing Games will immediately be erased," said the announcer, reading a WTF release.
In his first match, Matos defeated Italy's Leonardo Basile, then beat China's Liu Xiaobo 2-1 in the quarterfinals. But he lost to South Korean Cha Dong-min in the semis to land in the bronze-medal match.
"To me it was obvious he was unable to continue," Chilmanov said. "His toe on his left foot was broken."
Matos won the gold medal in this division at the 2000 Sydney Games, dedicating the victory to his mother, who died on the day of the opening ceremony. At the 2004 Athens Games, he finished 11th.
Matos' tantrum followed a day of confusion on the mats.
Earlier Saturday, China's double gold medalist Chen Zhong crashed out in the quarterfinals after initially being declared the winner.
The day was rife with upsets.
Working her way through the easier of the two pools, Norway's relatively unheralded Nina Solheim won her first two bouts with a comfortable point margin and defeated 2005 world champion Natalia Falavigna of Brazil in the semis to meet world champion Maria del Rosario Espinoza of Mexico for the over 67-kg (147.4 pounds) title.
Espinoza won the final, going ahead in the first round and never falling behind. The final score was 4-1.
She had her hands full getting through the quarters 4-2 against Sweden's Karolina Kedzierska, who launched several high kicks that did not connect. Espinoza then took on Britain's Sarah Stevenson, the 2006 European champion, in the semis. Espinoza dominated the match, earning her final berth with a 4-1 win.
Espinoza was to fight Chen in the semis, but the judges overturned an earlier ruling and made Stevenson the winner of the quarterfinal bout in which Chen scored in the closing seconds of the second round and then Stevenson tagged her with a head kick -- worth two points -- in the third.
The judges ruled Stevenson's kick wasn't solid enough for points, and Chen was declared the winner 1-0. After Britain protested, and the result was changed to put Stevenson in the semifinal.
The decision brought loud jeers from the crowd. China did not appeal.
It was the first time a match result has been overturned since taekwondo became an official Olympic sport in 1990.
"I obviously had scored. I don't know if they weren't watching or what," Stevenson said. "That's one of the things I hate about this sport."
Stevenson won bronze, along with Brazil's Falavigna.
Cha made it four-for-four gold medals for South Korea. In taekwondo, countries are allowed to enter only four athletes.
Cha fell behind when Alexandros Nikolaidis of Greece nailed him with a head kick 15 seconds into the bout. But he came back with a body kick and a head shot of his own to take back the lead, adding another point to go 4-3 going into the third round.
Nikolaidis evened it out at 4-4 with a body kick, but Cha scored with just 18 seconds left to claim the gold in the men's over-80 kg (176 pounds) division.
Daba Modibo Keita of Mali, the 2007 world champion, was defeated in overtime in the quarterfinals by Nigeria's Chika Yagazie Chukwumerije. The Nigerian then went up against Athens silver medalist Nikolaidis.
Nikolaidis scored with a head kick in the third round, then again in the final second to advance to the final.
The bronzes went to Chilmanov, who beat Matos, and Chukwumerije.

The Olympic Official acted properly and with decorum as befits an Olympic Judge, IMO..

 

[Tez3]

I don't think that the Cubans outburst has damaged TKD btw, people can see it for what it was, a nasty temper tantrum by a bad sportsman. Action was taken and was seen to be taken very quickly, it can happen in any sport.The fact it was dealt with severely and that there maybe a police investigation has shown it's not acceptable. Not nice to see but the damage is limited.
If Stevenson's kick was too light to score I wonder why it bust the Chinese girls lip?

 

[Kwanjang]

This sums it up. Thanks Herb.

I am sick to my stomach. This is a disgrace. They obviously could care less about the sport. What is Herb Perez doing calling for TKD to be removed from the Olympics. These people have got their medals and competed in their Olympics and now they choose to ruin it for the entire sport.


When (poor judging) happens to you, you’re told to shut up and not say anything because of what will happen to you, or what will happen to the sport,” Perez said. “If this is truly what taekwondo is about, maybe taekwondo shouldn’t be in the Olympics. Maybe they should fix it.”

Wow, keep your opinions about TKD in the Olympics to yourself!!!!!
What about the other athletes that are training in this sport!!!!

Well said Terry!

 

[kwaichang]

When (poor judging) happens to you, you’re told to shut up and not say anything because of what will happen to you, or what will happen to the sport,”Wow, keep your opinions about TKD in the Olympics to yourself!!!!! ... Well said Terry!

hmmm, this board is all about opinions and experience so while one actually at a competition should take the first part of advice, the second part of your advice isn't in line with free speech and improving the sport.

 

[terryl965]

Terry,
do what I do, tell people you teach AMERICAN TKD. Seperate yourself from the WTF garbage and do it NOW. The olympic style is a dead dog anyway, we all know it. Once it i out of the olympics, it is gonna die off anyway.

Truth be told, the more you link yourself to the hands down, no self defense, no punching WTF style, the more you hurt your credibility as an instructor.

I know you think it might cost you potential students, but think of the potential students you can gain by concentrating on the REAL TKD

lose the chest protectors and start going to the open tourny's

As long as you have tourny's to take the kids to, they wont care if it is an AOK tourny of a wtf style.

You want to get back to the real art?

lose the WTF and tell the KKW to kiss your butt.

Please I have nevr been WTF at anytime we do some WTF style of sparring for the few but we do alot of point and continous point sparring and we all ready do AOK so we are fine with. We fight hamds up at all cost, so my credibility is fine withen my circle;s. Those that know me well knows what is the most important thing to me is SD principle and then sport. We get dis-qualify alot for kicking to hard.

 

[igillman]

The reaction of people to TKD in this olympics, on the surface, looks like an overreaction. We have had a few bad calls and one bad competitor and suddenly people are talking about removing it from the olympics. However, I think the reactions of these people is revealing an underlying issue with the sport as a whole.

Telling people not to protest for the sake of "harmony" simply leaves people frustrated and angry. That frustration and anger boils underneath the surface until something happens, someone says something and then a whole tsunami of accusations backed by years of frustration and anger finds an outlet.

The sport of TKD needs to become more open and more transparent. It needs to acknowledge that the current system of judging is flawed, find the flaws and fix them. To continue to bury their heads in the sand and to tell people not to protest will not change anything. Instead of being a sport of fighters it will become a sport of politics, "may the best connected win".

I fear that TKD is going to go the way boxing went a couple of decades ago. Blatently bad judging being upheld by the governing body ruined the sport and it is only now starting to make a comback.

The "win at all costs" mentality is creeping into the sport of TKD.

 

[crushing]

Incidentally mis-scoring happened in the boxing too, several boxers fighting Chinese boxers weren't marked fairly. The Irish team got a silver when in fact their fighter had scored enough to get the gold. I've heard too it happened in other sports where marking by judges is used.
As we say in MMA though the best way to make sure you don't get a judges decision is a KO! You can go for that in boxing but can you in TKD?

One of the boxing matches was so poorly mis-scored that a person given the gold was even booed during the medal ceremony. I couldn't believe the scoring I saw in the DeGale/Correa fight. I saw what I considered poor judging in the earlier rounds, but this one had me giving up on being an Olympic boxing fan. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the only other Olympic event to watch was the synchronized swimming, which seems to me to be better suited for a Vegas show, so I figured it was time to turn off the tv.

 

[granfire]

Look I am not saying anything bad here it is just some of our young athletes have put alot of time in for the way it look like nothing. I agree sport TKD is not what I was tought but for some teenager looking for a way to compete this was it, maybe I should have done swimming or Gymnastics.

I appoligize, it came out wrong.

I am sure when TKD was initiated into the Olympic ranks in 88 many had high hopes for it.

Not many sports stay true to their roots once the precious metals cast their shine over them. And the urge to cheat for the glory is high.

Anyhow, my Sister rode (Dressage, Olympic, not without trouble these days) and I fenced. growing up in Germany either one of us had a snowball's chance in hell to get anywhere near there, but a girl can dream. Besides not living anywhere near the training center did not exactly advance my chances. My trainer btw was on the 1980s Olympic team, and we all know how that went for for the athletes. It was his only shot (and he had a good chance, too)


I am not experienced enough to say how good you can be competeing Olympic style while staying close to the roots of real MA. But if you do, a facet of the sports side falling by the wayside should not have too big of an impact. And frankly, if your kid is 14, give him the benefit of the doubt that he might have seen that Olympic TKD is just not the pinnacle of the competition. granted recent events in my life left me more cynical then before.

So, with any chance the organizations get together and clean house and get a reprieve for the sport. But like I said, TKD is a can of worms, and while there are huge numbers in practitioners, it seems to me that the organizations selected hardly represent the whole of the art and the selection process is not likely to ensure top level competition, really.

But then again that is also not likely, since TKD is not in any shape or form uniform, not even close to it. It probably never really was.

And I sincerily hope your son find something to rekindle his dreams and spirit. One Thug should not let us give up on our dreams!

 

[Twin Fist]

Then you aint got nothing to worry about bro.Play YOUR game. The olympic style is dying, we all know that.

Please I have nevr been WTF at anytime we do some WTF style of sparring for the few but we do alot of point and continous point sparring and we all ready do AOK so we are fine with. We fight hamds up at all cost, so my credibility is fine withen my circle;s. Those that know me well knows what is the most important thing to me is SD principle and then sport. We get dis-qualify alot for kicking to hard.

 

[IcemanSK]

To be told "don't say anything for the sake of harmony in the sport" seems to be a very Korean thing to say. Heck, there is a history of....well, changing history. There used to be Kwans. Now there is Kukki-TKD. Shotokan played a huge part in early TKD. Now, "TKD is 2000 years old."

Sometimes truth & dicenting opinion are sacrificed for the sake of harmony. Heck, the USA is good at that as well, let's be honest.

 

[YoungMan]

Forsaking your own opinion for the larger good is a very Oriental philosophy, right out of Confucianism, and something Westerners have a hard time accepting.
However, if you're going to open Taekwondo up to the Olympics (a celebration of Western sports), you must also realize that trying to maintain traditional Korean values will be almost impossible. Westerners protest what they see as unfair. It is part of our heritage. The only way to keep it truly Korean is to forsake the Olympics and practice Taekwondo as a traditional Korean martial art.
If one good thing comes out of this, it might be the idea that the Olympics is not why we train. I am 100% in favor of keeping Taekwondo a traditional Korean martial art regardless of where it is practiced. Sacrificing that mentality for Olympic gold? Not so much.

 

[Independent_TKD]

I don't post much anymore but was compelled to put in my two cents...

What happened at the Olympics was pathetic. The Cuban fighter is a total coward and should be criminally charged. From my expereinces, the overall mentality and fighting stlye (tactics, point celebrating, etc.) of Olympic TKD competitiors, coaches, and schools is so far away from the real meaning of martial arts that is has become a joke. Sadly, taekwondo as it is practiced by the majority of schools in the USA has become a total laughing stock. (i.e. the movie "Foot Fist Way").

After ten years of practicing TKD, I quit to pursue muay thai, which I see as being much more effective as an overall striking martial art. I don't compete for belts in muay thai, I train strictly for self-defense. Looking back, I couldn't have made a better decision. This is my second year with muay thai and I feel I am worlds better in terms of stand-up self-defense then I ever was (or would have been) practicing TKD. That's just me, not everyone will agree.

To regain some reputation and dignity, I strongly suggest traditional TKD black blets form some kind of renamed organization or renamed art differentiating themselves from TKD. For me, I switched to another art entirely, but not everyone should have to do that.

 

[turtle]

It's kind of depressing to see that the NBC clip has over 800,000 views, way more views than any of the other featured clips on the popular clips page that comes up after the video ends. This has turned taekwondo into a kind of "freak show" story in the mainstream media.

 

[Deaf Smith]

To me it does not matter if the cuban guy just tapped the ref or tried to KO him or if the ref's gave a bad call. When you sign up for a tourmament, you sign up. You agreed to the whole setup.

What the cuban guy did was to show a huge lack of respect for the Olympics, TKD, the referees, and the world at large.

I'm sorry guys, but sometimes 'capital punishment' is necessary. In this case, it's out the door for good. Not only to punish him, but to send a message to all other competitors that such acts will not be tollerated, period.

Deaf

 

[TheOriginalName]

The first rule when competing in anything - the judge\ref is always right.
The second rule when competing in anything - if the judge\ref is wrong refer to rule one.

If there is a major issue the majority of comps have appeal avenues open to the competitors - that is the way to deal with it.

Something doesn't go your way - fine feel cheated\robbed but realise that umps\refs\judges are human as well and if they weren't there then you wouldn't be competing.

As for the Cuban - a life ban for bringing the sport into disrepute should surfice. Or at least that is my opinion.

 

[Brad Dunne]

The following statement is a "mild" generalization, about the sport venue of TKD. Most, if not all senior practicioners, have seen or been affected in some way by the less than equal treatment dispenced by the Korean overlords.....................

Since the birth of "sport TKD", from the small local tournaments thru the state and regional, right on up to the good old olympics themselves, it's all been about the almighty dollar. Student wins, then students school / instructor becomes better known and therefor is able to increase monitary gains. It becomes such a cut throat business, that cheating and plain fraud has reared it's ugly head. Bad judging, reversed calls, even arguements and fist fights have occured between Korean instructors at tournaments, because they know what's at stake and they want their piece of whatever pie is available.

Olympic TKD has been mired down and in trouble way before this happened. There was the rumor that it was being reviewed by the IOC and many felt that it was on it's last legs and was going to be dropped, because it was not fulfilling the expected excitement and draw that it did when it was first introduced as a non-medal venue. If one can, go back and review those matches/fights and look at what's been offered today and you will most likely turn the channel in disgust. My personal opinon is that the Cuban fighter may have done the best service to the art of TKD, that anybody could have done. He's shown a "Bright Light" on a disfunctional sporting event and hopefully pushed it over the edge and convinced the powers that be, that it's long overdue for removal from the Olympic setting....................

While their at it, mabey they can get rid of the many nonsense venues that have also wandered into the Olympic format. :soapbox:

 

[Archangel M]

http://www.nbcolympics.com/taekwondo/news/newsid=251304.html#kicked+out+cuban+banned+life

Matos angrily questioned the call, pushed a judge, then pushed and kicked referee Chakir Chelbat of Sweden, who will require stitches in his lip. Matos spat on the floor and was escorted out.
"This is an insult to the Olympic vision, an insult to the spirit of taekwondo and, in my opinion, an insult to mankind," Yang said.

 

[terryl965]

Should be in prison as well, this is not needed at any level.