I said they are a key part of defining junior/senior relationships. And they are. What makes that black belt senior to the white belt that just joined? It is his greater training and experience which translates into the symbolism tied around his waist. His black belt automatically gives the white belt the assumption that this is someone the white belt can ask questions of, seek help from. Like it or not, there is significance there.
Belts have no part in defining the relationship. The belt indicates the general rank of another person. But it does not define the relationship, nor it it a key part of it. It may be a part of identifying who is senior to whom, though in a school that does not use stripes on the black belt, the belt can no longer be used reliably for this.
Identification of who is senior is not a relationship with the senior, which is why I say that belts have no part in defining the relationship. You and I have some kind of relationship: we are both taekwondoin who participate on this board. We have a relationship to Glenn and Master Cole. I have no idea whether or not you are senior to me, though given that you are a taekwondo school owner and I run a kendo school, even if our rank and time in grade is the same, I'd give you the nod. I suspect that we'd both acknowledge Glenn and Master Cole as senior to us. That relationship is defined by our communication with one another and our interractions. Belts are not a part of it.
It seems that we are talking about different things. You seem to be talking about a relationship of proximity within the rank structure, in which case the belts serve as a means to determine who is where in that structure. I am talking about interpersonal relationships.
No, I did not imply that. That is an inference you make, based on your mindset. I said my TKD belts were not awarded to me with a PURPOSE nor USAGE of competition in mind. The dojang I learned in followed the color meanings established by General Choi. White = Pure without Knowledge, Yellow = A Seed begins, etc. And our black belts (brown belts even) had a substantial performance factor attached to them, again with no link to bracketing or seeding or what not. Their award meant you had demonstrated a good amount of skill in the required curriculum and you had also shown some perseverance in the face of challenge and distress.
Okay. What you say now is not what I responded to. If this is what you meant, then fine.
But this is what I responded to:
Probably because the idea is very foreign to the martial arts I practice. I've already discussed aikido. Likewise with my brand of Goju-ryu karate which is anything but sport-focused. Even the TKD black belts I hold had nothing to do with tournament placement at all, although certainly when I attended open tournaments, that came into play. My TKD black belt at the dojang I earned it in meant I was a guy with some skills and also some toughness to back it up with.
No inferrence: I responded to exactly what you typed. Also as before, I have bolded the part that I was responding to. I left the rest in because I did not want your quote hanging there without the rest of the context.
You said that competition is "very foreign" to the arts that you practice. That is a comment about the art itself. You then went on to describe things about your training and your experiences. The reason that I bolded the first sentence is that competition is not at all foreign to taekwondo as an art, KKW in particular, which you practice. Just because it was not a part of what you were taught or the curriculum that you have chosen to teach to your students does not make it foreign to the art. That is the distinction that I was making.
Never said it was. Please re-read instead of putting up a strawman for me to defend against.
Never said that you said it was. I was stating my own views and in no way was inferring what I think you had said.
I have said repeatedly that there are ample styles and systems which have no competitions YET they use belts. It therefore follows that the PRIMARY purpose of belts for them CANNOT be for competition bracketing.
Please take the time to address this conundrum as this discussion can't really progress until you do.
Sure. Hapkido, which I also practice, traditionally either has no competitive element or the competitive element is really a sidebar. But we're not on the hapkido or aikido board. If we were, we probably would not be having this discussion, as those arts utilize belts in a different manner and do not traditionally have a competitive element.
But taekwondo does have a competitive element, and it is at the arts core, not a sidebar like it is in hapkido. Taekwondo would actually be called 'taekkyeon-do' had the Hanmoon characters existed for it. And taekkyeon is competitive.
I also freely acknowledge that there are taekwondo systems that do not have a competitive element. But these are definitely the minority. The fact that you teach a style that has the element but choose not to engage in it does not change that it has that element.
As the saying goes, something for everyone. You and your students have found something in KKW TKD that is for you. Which I think is great.
This is another strawman I'm afraid. I said the idea of competition bracketing as the primary rationale for belt rankings was very foreign to the arts I practice, the TKD I learned included. I did not say competition is foreign to TKD.
And yes I bought a KKW curriculum school. Location, location, location. I am enjoying learning the poomsae however.
The fact that you focus on pumse and that your taekwondo training did not involve competition does not change that competition is not foreign to taekwondo; you simply do not involve yourself.
Which is fine. I rather like the idea of an application based TKD curriculum with a strong 'do' element. Belts work very well in symbolism and in maintaining an orderly class.
Ah, finally we get to the meat of it. If I have misunderstood you all along then I apologize. If you acknowledge that there are styles and systems that have entirely different meanings attached to their usage of belt ranks than competition bracketing, I can have no quarrel with you. Yet as I recall you specifically made mention to the ATA as well which although a TKD style still doesn't fit your premise...And Jhoon Rhee TKD as well.
I certainly acknowledge that. I also acknowledge that both competition bracketing and other meanings/usages can exist together in harmony. This is what I think is the case with the ATA. Which is the point that I tried to make with SPX.
The belts in the ATA do the following:
1. Gather the dobok.
2. Allow for competition bracketing within age/weight/gender divisions.
3. Provide a visual cue as to where in the curriculum the student is as a benefit to both students and instructors.
4. Provide an incentive, particularly to children and teens, who are most likely the bulk of ATA students.
5. Provide a teaching tool of Songahm philosophy through the various meanings attached to each color.
Belts serve primarily in the capacities of 1, 2 & 3. All five year olds wearing a dobok need the belt to gather it just as much as all adults do. The black belt on a five year old means that he or she will not be whomping on yellow belt five year olds in competition. It also places the fice year old into the dan grade material in the class where he or she is training with others of their own age range.
So unless are an adult who either competes against or trains in a class with five year olds, the idea that a five year old was awarded a black piece of cloth to go with his or her next rank shouldn't make a bit of difference.
Perhaps to cement the discussion once and for all, let's look at this most excellent post written by mastercole:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...d-black-belt&p=1459360&highlight=#post1459360
It is well worth reading multiple times for later reflection, but for brevity's sake I will only quote a small part.
The various colors of the geup belts represent the various spectrum of human emotion. The geup holder experiences the spectrum of these internal obstacles, eventually combining them all, and as when you combine all primary colors, you get black and black represents the emptiness of the vast emptiness of the universe (taegeuk). The goal for color belt experience is black belt understanding.
The black color of the Dan belt represents the new Dan holders realization that the new goal is the death of these emotions (ignorance's, desires, delusion) they identified as a geup holder. The new Dan holder, who now has basic talent, confronts these internal obstacles via the pursuit of refinement and excellence. This confrontation with the self, will take place for many years across many levels as long as the Dan holder does not give up, eventually the Dan holder should victor over the self (pil-seung) and no longer be challenged by these internal obstacles.
Daniel, how do you reconcile this with your contention about the primary purpose of belt ranks?
I would say that what he states is true and exists in harmony with the purpose of competition bracketing. I consider competition, while not comprising the bulk of the art, to be vital to the essence of the art. If you or others feel differently then that is fine; what is most important is that you are meeting your students' needs and that taekwondo as you practice it is a positive force in your life and the lives of your students.
Competition, however, does provide a vital (though not the only) way to confront the obtacles and challenges. Competition provides a unique set of obstacles and challenges, and not just on a physical level. I think it obvious that Angel Matos' primary failing was that he was unable to overcome the non-physical challenges of competition. Unfortunately, he failed this challenge at the Olympics with all the world watching.
When I express the idea of competition bracketing being the primary purpose for colors on belts, it is also with the assumption that taekwondo competition is about more than just winning or losing a bout. More than just scoring points. It is about winning as a person, regardless of the outcome of the bout. It is also about experiencing failures that you can now see and work to overcome, which makes you a better person.
