Another ATA 5 year old black belt

dancingalone

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I wasn't thinking so much of variance between students but of the perception of what an average black belt student is, taking into account the age of the student (child vs. teen vs. adult vs. senior citizen).

I think you'll find that too. Some member schools don't award full rank to their Tiny Tigers. Others do with geup grades and official certificates. Some schools follow that 'Black Belt is where you really start training' meme while others still think even a 1BD needs to be crisp and sharp.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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So they're no different than anyone else, but get negative publicity due to having a child BB division and a camo belt, along with light contact WTF style sparring, and they know how to run a profitable organization and establish profitable schools.

And they seem to get more kids into news articles.

Sounds like sour grapes on the part of everyone else.
 

dancingalone

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So they're no different than anyone else, but get negative publicity due to having a child BB division and a camo belt, along with light contact WTF style sparring, and they know how to run a profitable organization and establish profitable schools.

And they seem to get more kids into news articles.

Sounds like sour grapes on the part of everyone else.

They're an easy target due to the highly commercial operating plans used by many of their member school owners. To be fair though, I admit some of the practices by SOME are rather questionable if one is trying to turn out skilled martial artists rather than good kids. Like no-contact sparring for example.

This is one of the biggest cognitive dissonances ATA schools face with other people in the martial arts. The fact is that you CAN'T create skilled fighters without a high level of contact or a more serious mindset in training. I don't think anyone would argue that. But clearly that's not the goal of ATA schools for the most part, though a few isolated pockets exist here and there. So they get a lot of grief, but realistically if we look at many of their detractors, perhaps the same criticisms can be levied there also.
 

Twin Fist

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whenever your goal is "to make money" instead of "to produce quality students" you will catch hell. And i dont think anyone would argue that the ATA, as an org, is more concerned with making money than making quality blackbelts. Some schools may not be, but the org itself clearly IS
 

dancingalone

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whenever your goal is "to make money" instead of "to produce quality students" you will catch hell

TF, that's exactly the type of cognitive dissonance I refer to. They ARE producing quality students, at least by their own school's internal measure. A lot of school owners value turning out confident, sociable kids capable of working in teams more than they care about whether the kiddo can snap a sidekick into someone's rib and make it hurt. It may not be what you and I prefer, but they're imminently successful at what they set as a goal.
 

Twin Fist

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perhaps i should have said:

when your goal is to make money and not so much to produce high level fighters you will catch hell from people that focus on producing fighters instead of making money.
 

dancingalone

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perhaps i should have said:

when your goal is to make money and not so much to produce high level fighters you will catch hell from people that focus on producing fighters instead of making money.

I look at the environment my niece and nephew train in and I conclude that they are doing something like soccer. Fun physical activity in a positive, encouraging atmosphere. Which is great. I could think of a lot worse things they could be wasting their time on.

It is not what I do and rather than deploring it these days I look at it as an opportunity to differentiate myself from them with students who want a different focus in their training.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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whenever your goal is "to make money" instead of "to produce quality students" you will catch hell. And i dont think anyone would argue that the ATA, as an org, is more concerned with making money than making quality blackbelts. Some schools may not be, but the org itself clearly IS
But I don't think that their main goal is to make money; I think that their goal is to provide a family friendly martial arts themed activity that produces "confident, sociable kids capable of working in teams" and that production of high level fighters simply is not on the menu.

Unfortunately, the type of atmosphere that ATA schools strive for costs money; they want the schools in nice neighborhoods and they want their schools to look modern and up to date. Nice facilities in retail space in a nice neigborhood costs money. If you want your school to last, you need to be making enough to cover the costs. The fact that the ATA, from what I understand, is very supportive of their schools and offers them tips and strategies on how to be financially solvent is actually a positive.

They've identified their market and tailored their product accordingly. Bully to them. It isn't the product that I would want, so I shop elsewhere. But then I'm not their intended market.
 

puunui

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They've identified their market and tailored their product accordingly. Bully to them. It isn't the product that I would want, so I shop elsewhere. But then I'm not their intended market.

it's sort of like shopping for a car, most people are not interested in driving a humvee everywhere and instead prefer something else. But then you have the humvee owners out there saying that your mercedes or mini cooper sucks and wouldn't last two seconds in a battle with a humvee. The mercedes and/or mini cooper owners look at the humvee guy and say who ever said I wanted to battle with you or anyone else in my car, that if safety was my number one priority I would have bought a volvo.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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it's sort of like shopping for a car, most people are not interested in driving a humvee everywhere and instead prefer something else. But then you have the humvee owners out there saying that your mercedes or mini cooper sucks and wouldn't last two seconds in a battle with a humvee. The mercedes and/or mini cooper owners look at the humvee guy and say who ever said I wanted to battle with you or anyone else in my car, that if safety was my number one priority I would have bought a volvo.
More than likely, it would be Hummer owners saying, 'Your Mercedes or Mini Cooper sucks and would be stuck in two seconds going where my Hummer can go.' The Mercedes and/or Mini Cooper owners look at the Hummer owner and say, 'who ever said I wanted to go where yourHummer can go? If off roading were my number one priority, I would have bought a Wranger.'

Turn that into, 'Your ATA or WTF sucks and would get you killed in two seconds in a bar fight.' The ATA and/or WTF taekwondoists look at the hard core guy and say, 'who ever said I wanted to get into a bar fight? If bar fights were my number one priority, I would have become a bouncer.'

I have no idea what ATA schools teach regarding situational awareness and safety tips, but I'd bet that they do promote a clean, healthy lifestyle that doesn't involve going places where you have no business going, and if their students learn to live that clean, healthy lifestyle, the ATA will have done far more for their safety than all the hard core SD techniques ever devised.
 

puunui

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More than likely, it would be Hummer owners saying, 'Your Mercedes or Mini Cooper sucks and would be stuck in two seconds going where my Hummer can go.' The Mercedes and/or Mini Cooper owners look at the Hummer owner and say, 'who ever said I wanted to go where yourHummer can go? If off roading were my number one priority, I would have bought a Wranger.'

Turn that into, 'Your ATA or WTF sucks and would get you killed in two seconds in a bar fight.' The ATA and/or WTF taekwondoists look at the hard core guy and say, 'who ever said I wanted to get into a bar fight? If bar fights were my number one priority, I would have become a bouncer.'

I have no idea what ATA schools teach regarding situational awareness and safety tips, but I'd bet that they do promote a clean, healthy lifestyle that doesn't involve going places where you have no business going, and if their students learn to live that clean, healthy lifestyle, the ATA will have done far more for their safety than all the hard core SD techniques ever devised.

Exactly. And I like your analogy better. :)
 

Kinghercules

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More than likely, it would be Hummer owners saying, 'Your Mercedes or Mini Cooper sucks and would be stuck in two seconds going where my Hummer can go.' The Mercedes and/or Mini Cooper owners look at the Hummer owner and say, 'who ever said I wanted to go where yourHummer can go? If off roading were my number one priority, I would have bought a Wranger.'

Turn that into, 'Your ATA or WTF sucks and would get you killed in two seconds in a bar fight.' The ATA and/or WTF taekwondoists look at the hard core guy and say, 'who ever said I wanted to get into a bar fight? If bar fights were my number one priority, I would have become a bouncer.'

I have no idea what ATA schools teach regarding situational awareness and safety tips, but I'd bet that they do promote a clean, healthy lifestyle that doesn't involve going places where you have no business going, and if their students learn to live that clean, healthy lifestyle, the ATA will have done far more for their safety than all the hard core SD techniques ever devised.

Why does it always gotta be about a "bar fight"?
Why cant it be at the water park?
Or the grocery store?
Or just because someone is havin a bad day and they feel like fightin.

You dont have to be in a bar to get into a fight. I thought the purpose of MA was for self defense in any situation at any time. Some where along the line that concept got lost in TKD world.
 

leadleg

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Why does it always gotta be about a "bar fight"?
Why cant it be at the water park?
Or the grocery store?
Or just because someone is havin a bad day and they feel like fightin.

You dont have to be in a bar to get into a fight. I thought the purpose of MA was for self defense in any situation at any time. Some where along the line that concept got lost in TKD world.
Why do you think it got lost? Don't all tkdoin practice punching and kicking? I don't know about others but to me punching, kicking, and blocking are usually what wins the fight, be it offense or defense. Unless someone has a bat.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Why does it always gotta be about a "bar fight"?
Why cant it be at the water park?
Or the grocery store?
Or just because someone is havin a bad day and they feel like fightin.
If you're getting into fights at the water park and the grocery store or are around the kind of people who fight because they are having a bad day, then you need to examine your lifestyle and the people you associate with. I stopped having 'SD' situations the minute I stopped going to night clubs and distanced myself from most of my old crowd.

Non physical elements are vastly more important in the circumstances that you list above, and those elements need no sparring or hard contact to develop. Learning effective verbal and social skills will help you 99.9 percent of the time, and I'd be willing to bet that most of these supposedly SD focused hard core schools spend zero time on those skills.

You dont have to be in a bar to get into a fight.
No you don't, but if you are finding yourself around people that randomly want to pick fights, I'd be willing to bet that you are frequenting places where alcohol is flowing freely, or are simply accociating with toxic or delf destructive people.

I thought the purpose of MA was for self defense in any situation at any time. Some where along the line that concept got lost in TKD world.
You thought wrong. Self defense is only a very small part of modern (meaning late ninteenth century onward) martial arts. Gendai budo, which strongly influenced taekwondo (some argue that taekwondo comes out of gendai budo, specifically Shotokan), is about improving yourself via the martial path, not about self defense. SD is a byproduct of the martial arts, not the primary target.

Taekwondo is no more about self defense than MMA, boxing or kickboxing, and the same holds true for most other martial arts. Yes, you can defend yourself with MMA, judo, boxing, taekwondo, Shotokan, or aikido, and if you have a cane handy, you can defend yourself with kendo.

Actually, the principles of kendo can be applied to unarmed defense as well; one of my students used 'kendo' with a schoolyard bully. He didn't have a sword or a shinai with him, but he used the non physical elements to gain advantage against a much larger boy who was intent upon beating him up, and popped him in the nose. My student had no unarmed training whatsoever and has never done any contact sparring outside of kendo, but he said that it was the fighting spirit, timing, and principles of offense and defense that came into play.

So, this kid defended himself with kendo, but kendo is not a self defense art. Likewise, you can defend yourself with any striking art, but it doesn't make it a self defense system.

If you haven't, go and take a true self defense class. You'll find that it is a lot different from a taekwondo class, even a taekwondo class at a top notch, hard core school. Much of what you learn (or should learn) in an actual self defense class is how to avoid fights and situations where you would need to physically defend yourself.

Living safely is like driving; in driving, you train to drive safely and to avoid situations that will result in an accident, not crash survivability. You train to stay out of the northbound lane when you are going south; you shouldn't be there and if you are, you may end up in a head on collision. Drivers don't train to drive on the wrong side of the road and slalom through oncoming cars; that would be stupid; you're not supposed to be there in the first place. Nor do drivers train to 'body check' cars that drift across the lines back into their own lanes; that would be stupid, as avoiding the idiot is a far better course of action with a much greater chance of success, and without the accompanying potential for legal problems.

Likewise, a clean, healthy lifestyle that doesn't involve going places where you have no business going, the social and verbal skills to handle antagonistic people, and the situational awareness to know when to extracate yourself from a potentially dangerous situation are of far greater value than any fight skill.
 
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dancingalone

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If you're getting into fights at the water park and the grocery store or are around the kind of people who fight because they are having a bad day, then you need to examine your lifestyle and the people you associate with. I stopped having 'SD' situations the minute I stopped going to night clubs and distanced myself from most of my old crowd.
....

No you don't, but if you are finding yourself around people that randomly want to pick fights, I'd be willing to bet that you are frequenting places where alcohol is flowing freely, or are simply accociating with toxic or delf destructive people.
...
Likewise, a clean, healthy lifestyle that doesn't involve going places where you have no business going, the social and verbal skills to handle antagonistic people, and the situational awareness to know when to extracate yourself from a potentially dangerous situation are of far greater value than any fight skill.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I do think there are plenty of public venues entirely proper to go to, that nonetheless offer a higher chance for violence than a bucolic picnic setting.

Like a sporting event for example. The closest I've been to a fight in years came a couple of seasons ago at a NCAA football game when a rude guy shoved my son into my wife. I had to use all my self-restraint to not pound him into the ground.

It's not all about avoidance and living the Golden Path. Sometimes violence does visit good people, even in improbable settings. The sad example of that Connecticut home invasion and murder comes to mind.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I do think there are plenty of public venues entirely proper to go to, that nonetheless offer a higher chance for violence than a bucolic picnic setting.

Like a sporting event for example. The closest I've been to a fight in years came a couple of seasons ago at a NCAA football game when a rude guy shoved my son into my wife. I had to use all my self-restraint to not pound him into the ground.

It's not all about avoidance and living the Golden Path. Sometimes violence does visit good people, even in improbable settings. The sad example of that Connecticut home invasion and murder comes to mind.
Absolutely agree, though I hope that you don't think that I was implying that all violence can be avoided by clean living. Violence does sometimes come to you, just as sometimes, cars come across the line into your lane. You do what you can, but sometimes, a violent encounter is unavoidable.

But, while you cannot eliminate every potential violent threat any more than you can eliminate the chance of some bonehead causing an accident on the road, you can minimize the risks by controling your own behavioural patterns and lifestyle choices. Even home invasions can at least be guarded against; perpetrators do not pick their victims at random. If you go to the trouble to make your home a less appealing target, you can bet that someone else in the neigborhood didn't. Kind of in the same way that I don't have to be faster than the bear, just faster than the other guy.

I don't even think that you need to live a golden path. I do think, however, that engaging one's brain and using good sense and developing good habits go a very long way.
 

puunui

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Even home invasions can at least be guarded against; perpetrators do not pick their victims at random. If you go to the trouble to make your home a less appealing target, you can bet that someone else in the neigborhood didn't.

I don't live in an area where there are a lot of home invasions, at least not when people are obviously home. But what I did was I got a sign from an alarm company and posted it near the front door, even though I don't have an alarm for the house. A police officer friend told me that the probability of getting your home broken into if you have an alarm sign goes drastically down, because would be intruders rather not risk the alarm and instead bypass it for homes that do not have an alarm sign. Having said that, I am thinking about getting a home alarm system, because it isn't all that much.
 

puunui

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Absolutely agree, though I hope that you don't think that I was implying that all violence can be avoided by clean living. Violence does sometimes come to you, just as sometimes, cars come across the line into your lane. You do what you can, but sometimes, a violent encounter is unavoidable.

Having said that, I think that there are definitely things that one can do to greatly reduce the risk of getting attacked. Stop going to alcohol establishments frequented by young males. Changing jobs. Moving to a safer neighborhood. Things like that, if safety is your utmost priority. Most involve avoidance behaviors, which has already been mentioned above.
 

Gentle Fist

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How much did that "black" belt cost the mom? $1000? $2000? Unfortunately, the day may come where he finds out the hard way just what his "black" belt really means...
 

Daniel Sullivan

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How much did that "black" belt cost the mom? $1000? $2000? Unfortunately, the day may come where he finds out the hard way just what his "black" belt really means...
What? That he's a well adjusted human being in good health because he gets regular exercise? Some adult black belts should be so lucky.
 

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