Alabama Schools Paddle Kids With No Way For Parents To Opt-Out
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
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CoryKS
Senior Master
There may not be a way to opt-out, but there's always a way to suggest that it might not be a good idea. Just sayin'.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Alabama, eh? Shocking. Next thing you're going to tell me that Floridians do weird stuff (*waves*).
Beaten for failing a science test? What'd he do? Write that the earth isn't flat?
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
I can't really add much that hasn't been said, other than this is pretty much the embodiment of why I object to corporal punishment in a school setting. I wonder how often students with ADHD, dyslexia, or other learning impairments receive this punishment, and what lessons they're walking away from it with?
I hope the mother's efforts result in something, that teacher should not be in any position of dealing with children.
I hope the mother's efforts result in something, that teacher should not be in any position of dealing with children.
What an odd story.
I am actually in favour of corporal punishment but fully support the right of parents who dont want their children to abide by a schools discipline to take their offspring elsewhere.
I know it's a subject Bruno feels strongly about (and it's one of the rare occasions where I think his opinions and mine occupy opposite ends of the spectrum). But in this case it certainly doesn't sound like a discipline problem. That sort of physical 'encouragement' doesn't belong in a school.
I am actually in favour of corporal punishment but fully support the right of parents who dont want their children to abide by a schools discipline to take their offspring elsewhere.
I know it's a subject Bruno feels strongly about (and it's one of the rare occasions where I think his opinions and mine occupy opposite ends of the spectrum). But in this case it certainly doesn't sound like a discipline problem. That sort of physical 'encouragement' doesn't belong in a school.
Until I had kids I was indifferent to CP, it didn’t affect me, so I didn’t give it much thought. After I had kids and they went to school, I remembered some of the friggn crazy teachers I had, and decided that there was no way I would allow any teacher to use CP on my children. Now after courses and classroom time coming out of my *** for the last year and a half and being four weeks away from my M.Ed and teachers cert, I am more then ever certain that CP is not the way to go.
Many reasons why, but the one that has stuck with me the most is, why do we OK the use of CP on our youngest, most vulnerable and most impressionable members of society, our children, yet we don’t use it on our adult hardened criminals? If CP actually worked, we would use it as a means of controlling/reforming our criminal population, and yet we don’t, however we are telling our children that its OK to use physical violence to solve problems.
Sounds kinda f***ed up to me.
Many reasons why, but the one that has stuck with me the most is, why do we OK the use of CP on our youngest, most vulnerable and most impressionable members of society, our children, yet we don’t use it on our adult hardened criminals? If CP actually worked, we would use it as a means of controlling/reforming our criminal population, and yet we don’t, however we are telling our children that its OK to use physical violence to solve problems.
Sounds kinda f***ed up to me.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #11
I say if you let a teacher beat a kid for failing a test, the kids parents should be able to beat the teacher for failing to teach. Personally, I'm ok with CP....within certain situations. This isn't one of em.
Because it is not about solving problems.
There isn't much difference between this teacher and the MA teachers that long for a chance to beat on their students as hard as they think their senseis beat on them back in some days gone bye. This is not about efficient study habits, or effective teaching methods.
It is about power. Specifically, the power to beat out one's frustrations on someone weaker, the same way a parent or teacher pounded their frustrations out on them when they were younger, smaller, and weaker.
I have never been convinced by that argument, Ken. You are not teaching that violence solves problems, you are teaching that actions that break the rules have meaningful consequences.
For some kids, corporal punishment is not necessary, they learn the limits of their freedom to do what they want in other ways. For others, physical punishment is the only tool in the box that acts as a deterrent. For most kids, the very fact of it's existence is sufficient i.e. you don't have to beat all students in a school to quivering hunks of meat for it to be an effective deterent to disruptive behavour. MAD with a cane rather than a nuke
.
Without it, you have schools run by the kids rather than by the teachers. You (plural form of the word) may disagree with it on some moral plane but there are practical reasons why it is being reintroduced into English schools after a near 30 year disasterous experiment in it's non-use.
Without meaningful sanctions you have no control. Without control you have no discipline and without discipline you have a mob learning nothing other than that they can do what they wish regardless of what is expected of them.
We all pay the price for that in the end.
For some kids, corporal punishment is not necessary, they learn the limits of their freedom to do what they want in other ways. For others, physical punishment is the only tool in the box that acts as a deterrent. For most kids, the very fact of it's existence is sufficient i.e. you don't have to beat all students in a school to quivering hunks of meat for it to be an effective deterent to disruptive behavour. MAD with a cane rather than a nuke
.Without it, you have schools run by the kids rather than by the teachers. You (plural form of the word) may disagree with it on some moral plane but there are practical reasons why it is being reintroduced into English schools after a near 30 year disasterous experiment in it's non-use.
Without meaningful sanctions you have no control. Without control you have no discipline and without discipline you have a mob learning nothing other than that they can do what they wish regardless of what is expected of them.
We all pay the price for that in the end.
WC_lun
Senior Master
I'm not against Cp within certain limitations. When I was a kid, the paddle was used quite frequently. I know its hard to believe, but I even was on the recieving end more than a few times. As log as it is used judiciously and with rules in place to keep teachers from crossing the line into abuse, I'm okay with it. However, paddling a kid because he failed his test is complete BS. That is not a dscipline issue and that teacher needs to be paddled now.
As log as it is used judiciously and with rules in place to keep teachers from crossing the line into abuse, I'm okay with it. However, paddling a kid because he failed his test is complete BS. That is not a dscipline issue and that teacher needs to be paddled now.
I have never been convinced by that argument, Ken. You are not teaching that violence solves problems, you are teaching that actions that break the rules have meaningful consequences.
For some kids, corporal punishment is not necessary, they learn the limits of their freedom to do what they want in other ways. For others, physical punishment is the only tool in the box that acts as a deterrent. For most kids, the very fact of it's existence is sufficient i.e. you don't have to beat all students in a school to quivering hunks of meat for it to be an effective deterent to disruptive behavour. MAD with a cane rather than a nuke
Without it, you have schools run by the kids rather than by the teachers. You (plural form of the word) may disagree with it on some moral plane but there are practical reasons why it is being reintroduced into English schools after a near 30 year disasterous experiment in it's non-use.
Without meaningful sanctions you have no control. Without control you have no discipline and without discipline you have a mob learning nothing other than that they can do what they wish regardless of what is expected of them.
We all pay the price for that in the end.
A smack on the behind of a two year old having a temper tantrum at the mall is one thing, having some deranged teacher or principal swat a child with a paddle or cane is differnet.
There are multiple ways to put limits on children, violence is the easy route.
Blade96
Senior Master
why couldnt people just find out whats bothering the two year old having a temper instead of hitting them. Maybe she tired? or impatient with waiting in a long line? Kids dont have the patience of adults.
and 'without it schools would be run by the kids' I call bs on that. We dont have it in schools in Canada and our schools are just fine.
and 'without it schools would be run by the kids' I call bs on that. We dont have it in schools in Canada and our schools are just fine.
Education and the raising of our children is primarily the parents responsibility, and many parents push it all off on the education system to do it for them. Children spend maybe 15% of a year in the classroom, they don't take responsibility for their kids at home, so how can they expect the school system to do it for them? Look at the high achieving kids in any school, generally, they have parents who support them at home, teach them manners, disipline and show them love, the ones who act out and do poorly generally have parents who don't take time to raise their own children.
Poverty and a lack education are the real serious issues within our societies. Solve those and many of our other issues will go away.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
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Actually, we are not so much in disagreement.
I realize that there are times when cp is appropriate. We use it rarely, but we do have it as an option. About the only times when we use(d) it is if they hit/kick/bite other people (usually each other) with the intent to cause pain.
While we are generally not easily angered and not super strict, we insist on our kids being polite, and if one slaps the other and we see it, she gets a slap on her hands or her bottom and then gets 'corner timeout' until the message has gotten through.
Even in schools, I could accept cp for disciplinary purposes, as long as there some strict basic rules. The reasons for cp would have to be known up front. They would have to be documented, there would have to be at least 1 witness or evidence that it was warranted, and performing the cp would need to require witnessing by the school counselor or similar, to avoid abuse. At all times, abuse should be actively prevented.
The key word would be discipline. Not performance. There can be a multitude of reasons for failing a test or failing to understand a topic. Some people are just not wired for mathematics, but they are ace in languages or social sciences. Regardless of how much you spank someone, they will not get a different set of brains. It is abuse.
It is no different from what was done to left handed people here, until only 25 years ago: their left hand was tied behind their back in school, and if they did something with their left hand, they were slapped. I know people who got this treatment, and now they can't write decent with either hand. Not to mention they got turned off from school in general.
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With regard to the original incident:
That particular teacher needs to be arrested, then that kid's parents need to be allowed into the cell with HIM, each bearing a paddle, at exactly the moment the cell cameras suddenly experience a malfunction for an unexplainable 10 minutes.
As far as the argument that we don't use CP on our prisoners so why should we use it on our kids:
Personally, I think we SHOULD use CP on our prisoners for crimes less than rape, murder or home invasion. As far as the crimes of murder, rape and home invasion, I don't think we ought to HAVE prisoners. *draws thumb across neck*
As far as CP in schools provided it is directly ralated to discipline, with rules such as Bruno laid out:
I say give it a year. If it produces no discernible results, drop it, if it DOES produce results, make it national.
That particular teacher needs to be arrested, then that kid's parents need to be allowed into the cell with HIM, each bearing a paddle, at exactly the moment the cell cameras suddenly experience a malfunction for an unexplainable 10 minutes.
As far as the argument that we don't use CP on our prisoners so why should we use it on our kids:
Personally, I think we SHOULD use CP on our prisoners for crimes less than rape, murder or home invasion. As far as the crimes of murder, rape and home invasion, I don't think we ought to HAVE prisoners. *draws thumb across neck*
As far as CP in schools provided it is directly ralated to discipline, with rules such as Bruno laid out:
I say give it a year. If it produces no discernible results, drop it, if it DOES produce results, make it national.
No need for that, duck
. By all means say you disagree with me and why but it's not kind to call what I write "********" without finding out first what I am basing my views on.There is a certain amount of 'Daily Mail' exageration of the problem, certainly and the cases of extreme loss of disipline (as in large enough to make the national news) are rare. But it is a very real problem which has lead to great difficulty in recruiting teachers - I believe that similar problems exist in 'inner city' schools in the States too ... or is that just the result of my having seen "Dangerous Minds" too often
.Anyhow, we are drifting into generalities with regard to discipline in schools rather than the clearly wrong example of the use of corporal punishment that the OP specifies.
