Aikido.. The reality?

[Shatteredzen]

Provided aikido randori does what you state.

I mean if this worked. Then yeah he could have just walked through the crowd just throwing everyone.

instead of a demo lets use live movement where people are not moving to choreography as an example

 

[drop bear]

instead of a demo lets use live movement where people are not moving to choreography as an example

How does that fair against multiple opponents?

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, but if you're a trained wrestler, you'll know not to use that stance for striking. It's an excellent stance for its purpose, which is grappling.

That would be the solution.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah, but if you're a trained wrestler, you'll know not to use that stance for striking. It's an excellent stance for its purpose, which is grappling.

Although its horrible for not getting kicked in the face and head in a real fight, so there's that...

 

[Hanzou]

The movement in Aikido is different to Judo and BJJ, an incorporation of Aikido into Judo/BJJ movement only requires basic rule changes and I'm not suggesting a one for one incorporation either. What I see in current BJJ/MMA schools for weapon defense is laughable and unrealistic and most of it is just wholesale snatched from whatever krav maga class the instructor took although sometimes its polished up a little bit. Aikido techniques work very well on individuals holding weapons because the sympathetic reflex to maintain the grip on the weapon and the mechanics of taking the weapon away are complementary.

If an Aikidoka tries to disarm someone with a knife using Aikido, they're getting sliced up just like everyone else.

You can see "Aikido" techniques that were invented independently by the Europeans that show up in the medieval fight books for unarmed versus armed opponents and these are still regarded well in the HEMA circles as effective. While it has plenty of post war additions that can be thrown out as ineffective, the core of Aikido is sound, it is the focus on non-competition, out dated training methods and the lack of ability on the part of the students and even teachers within the Aikido community which make it "ineffective".

I've always taught using the BJJ method of demonstrate one or two techniques at the beginning of class, have everyone spend some time getting comfortable with them, answer any questions and then move straight into rolling. What I would like to do in the future is split this between time doing free grappling with no striking where either student can be the uke or nage and a version of the tanto randori where one person strikes or wields a weapon and the other student attempts to apply techniques against the attacker while evading.

I have always subscribed to the idea that what makes BJJ so practical and effective from a training standpoint is the amount of time students have to spend actively working through their "toolbox" under pressure and the fact that having to make do with your level of expertise or lack thereof forces you to "figure it out" when it comes to applying what you have been taught. MCMAP for example is really only a handful of techniques pulled from Aikido, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai and Wrestling but it builds practical results quickly by emphasizing speed and aggression and forcing the students to practically apply what they learn in full contact sparring. What MCMAP lacks in total number of techniques it makes up for by making its students very good at just a few things they can train to failure at and reliably apply.

If we drop all the extraneous techniques from Aikido that fall outside of the core concepts and just drill the arts core principles you can teach the system itself fairly quickly. This would go a long way to making it a more practical, niche part of Judo/Jujitsu grappling which has always been what Aikijutsu was in the past anyways. I think to save Aikido from itself it is going to have to drop the post war fluff and adopt more modern, more resistance based training methods. I doubt the Hombu dojo would follow along with such a drastic change but I would be fine with Hombu Aikido remaining as a self development art and practical Aikido moving forward as something else which is what Kenji Tomiki was trying to do back in the fifties and sixties anyways.

I don''t necessarily disagree with any of that, beyond my belief that trying to fit Aikido in a box of practicality is a feat that's simply not worth it. In my view the system is already too far gone and Judo and Bjj more than make up for whatever Aikido's original martial intentions were.. I can understand the desire to turn Aikido into a practical system if you really love it, but frankly if it hasn't happened at this point, why would it ever happen? It would appear that the Aikido community is perfectly happy with how things are currently.

 

[Shatteredzen]

How does that fair against multiple opponents?

I think it fairs quite well, we can argue over the quality of the training or the individual Aikidoka's personal ability to execute but randori against multiple attackers has its merits, even if it isn't done "right" at full speed. To be able to deal with multiple opponents you need to drill against multiple people trying to maneuver on you and by learning how your movement can effect their movement. People do have the tendency to stack up or come forward one at a time or to hesitate behind their friends and all of that behavior can be exploited provided you know how to read the body language, movement, etc. While you may not appreciate it, no one else really does this and some drilling is still better than none. We used to simply do evasion drills quite a bit when I was learning and the teacher would sometimes randomly toss in a training blade or escrima stick to spice things up or just up the ante. Training against one person and not with multiple people leads to tunnel vision, where even the relatively "low quality" version of randori practiced by many of these Aikido schools is still going to add to the persons situational awareness and movement.


As much as this guy attributed his kote gaishi takedown here to his time as a bouncer, all of the technique he displays here, his movement, his positioning and manipulation of the other attackers and his ability to peel the guy off and keep from getting surrounded are all 100% textbook Aikido.

 

[drop bear]

quality of the training or the individual Aikidoka's personal ability to execute but randori against multiple attackers has its merits, even if it isn't done "right" at full speed. To be able to deal with multiple opponents you need to drill against multiple people trying to maneuver on you and by learning how your movement can effect their movement

Ok then show me that drill.

 

[drop bear]

I think it fairs quite well, we can argue over the quality of the training or the individual Aikidoka's personal ability to execute but randori against multiple attackers has its merits, even if it isn't done "right" at full speed. To be able to deal with multiple opponents you need to drill against multiple people trying to maneuver on you and by learning how your movement can effect their movement. People do have the tendency to stack up or come forward one at a time or to hesitate behind their friends and all of that behavior can be exploited provided you know how to read the body language, movement, etc. While you may not appreciate it, no one else really does this and some drilling is still better than none. We used to simply do evasion drills quite a bit when I was learning and the teacher would sometimes randomly toss in a training blade or escrima stick to spice things up or just up the ante. Training against one person and not with multiple people leads to tunnel vision, where even the relatively "low quality" version of randori practiced by many of these Aikido schools is still going to add to the persons situational awareness and movement.


As much as this guy attributed his kote gaishi takedown here to his time as a bouncer, all of the technique he displays here, his movement, his positioning and manipulation of the other attackers and his ability to peel the guy off and keep from getting surrounded are all 100% textbook Aikido.

That was of course a classic Russian wrist snap and proof that wrestling works.

He was quite a big guy as well.

 

[Hanzou]

Although its horrible for not getting kicked in the face and head in a real fight, so there's that...

Yet wrestlers tend to do just fine in street fights. It's truly amazing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How is that particular stance "bad"?

When a sport doesn't involve with punching, people don't cover their heads.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah, but if you're a trained wrestler, you'll know not to use that stance for striking. It's an excellent stance for its purpose, which is grappling.

In sport, it's your opponent's fault to punch your head. It's your fault not to protect your head.

IMO, there is no stance for grappling (or striking). there is only stance for combat. A correct sport stance is not a correct combat stance. You just don't know what your opponent will do to you.

 

[Shatteredzen]

If an Aikidoka tries to disarm someone with a knife using Aikido, they're getting sliced up just like everyone else.



I don''t necessarily disagree with any of that, beyond my belief that trying to fit Aikido in a box of practicality is a feat that's simply not worth it. In my view the system is already too far gone and Judo and Bjj more than make up for whatever Aikido's original martial intentions were.. I can understand the desire to turn Aikido into a practical system if you really love it, but frankly if it hasn't happened at this point, why would it ever happen? It would appear that the Aikido community is perfectly happy with how things are currently.

Look, I understand you don't have any need or reason to take personal anecdote, but I've used it multiple times to take sticks and knives and other deadly implements away from people and I have never been cut or struck. Is this because I drilled better than other Aikidoka's? Had a **** ton of training and experience before doing it? I don't know. I had years of Aikido, Kali sparring, medieval fencing, SCA heavy fighting and HEMA style sparring with fellow European martial arts nerds before I ever saw a live weapon in a street fight but the techniques I used to deflect the attack and disarm the weapon in every case were vanilla Aikido. Was it extremely well drilled Aikido? Yes, but that's all it was. Could I have done the same against another martial artist? I think so, but with a much higher chance of injury albeit I have disarmed others during kali/escrima bouts. Thankfully, the number of trained and skilled melee combatants is low these days and people tend to telegraph with little to no technique. It may be that I just have more practical experience to understand proper application of technique, but that can be trained with better methods.

Your view of what is and isn't worth it is not really an issue, as an outsider to the discipline your observations are theory and you have nothing invested to have an opinion outside of that third party observer status. I would say there is a lot of good stuff in Aikido and it absolutely is worth saving, at least from the viewpoint of someone who enjoys it. The Japanese martial arts have had this very same problem since the end of the Edo period, European martial arts have just started to come back after multiple centuries of literally zero practice, I think there is plenty of time yet to save post world war two Aikido.

 

[Hanzou]

When a sport doesn't involve with punching, people don't cover their heads.

A sport doesn't need to involve punching if it more than makes up for that lack in other areas. If you're a puncher going up against a wrestler, you're going to need to knock that wrestler out before they get their hands on you. Given that a good portion of fist fights end up in clinch, that doesn't make going for a KO a very reliable game plan.

 

[Shatteredzen]

That was of course a classic Russian wrist snap and proof that wrestling works.

He was quite a big guy as well.

that was one hundred percent Kote Gaishi, to include the pre-movement to misdirect the opponent and barring the arm afterwords and its obvious he isn't doing the same technique.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A sport doesn't need to involve punching if it more than makes up for that lack in other areas. If you're a puncher going up against a wrestler, you're going to need to knock that wrestler out before they get their hands on you. Given that a good portion of fist fights end up in clinch, that doesn't make going for a KO a very reliable game plan.

Both Royce Gracie and Ken Shamrock don't use wrestling stance.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yet wrestlers tend to do just fine in street fights. It's truly amazing.

Wrestlers tend to do well in street fights with people who don't wrestle or train to fight. I have seen many of them take a boot right in the mouth using both that stance and going for a double leg. I know that the double leg works, I just have never seen one in the wild where the guy didn't run straight into a foot or knee or get sprawled on and pounded into oblivion.

 

[Shatteredzen]

A sport doesn't need to involve punching if it more than makes up for that lack in other areas. If you're a puncher going up against a wrestler, you're going to need to knock that wrestler out before they get their hands on you. Given that a good portion of fist fights end up in clinch, that doesn't make going for a KO a very reliable game plan.

More made up statistics. I have seen way fewer fights end up in a clinch than I have guys getting smoked out of their boots with a punch. While wrestling absolutely is a good thing, its nowhere near the silver bullet you are making it out to be. All of this theory crafting you are doing does a lot of assuming that your imaginary fighters are equally matched in height and weight, which isn't reliable outside of professional fighting. Even having something simple like two inches of reach for a competent striker is a gigantic game changer in a confrontation not to mention your wrestler needs the strength to overpower that striker.

 

[Buka]

If an Aikidoka tries to disarm someone with a knife using Aikido, they're getting sliced up just like everyone else.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm a good knife fighter. Just one of those things that I took to from the start, had an infinity for it, had a lot of great training.

But as far as disarming anybody with a knife if I don't already have one in my hand, I have never once even come close to training it successfully. And God knows I've put in the hours. And even if I did have it in hand, we're probably both going to get cut.

I used to teach knife disarms when I was a young instructor, as they were taught to me. Looking back, they were such utter bullship I'm glad nobody ever had to try them in real life.

Knives scare me a hell of a lot more than guns, at least close up.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm a good knife fighter. Just one of those things that I took to from the start, had an infinity for it, had a lot of great training.

But as far as disarming anybody with a knife if I don't already have one in my hand, I have never once even come close to training it successfully. And God knows I've put in the hours. And even if I did have it in hand, we're probably both going to get cut.

I used to teach knife disarms when I was a young instructor, as they were taught to me. Looking back, they were such utter bullship I'm glad nobody ever had to try them in real life.

Knives scare me a hell of a lot more than guns, at least close up.

Well it happens all the time, even with untrained people much less a competent knife fighter. A knife is not some mythical object with superhuman abilities, it is just a sharp piece of metal with a few inches of reach. The "everyone gets cut in a knife fight" routine is fun for old hats to toss around because there's a high probability of getting cut and the stakes are high so people don't do it as much as regular fist fighting. A bayonet for example is a sharp piece of metal on the end of a stick, the actual metrics developed by the military are more akin to "you stick the guy or he sticks you or you both stick each other, the end" this leaves all sorts of room for not actually getting cut to happen.

I can watch any given full speed Kali match and see a disarm on a stick or a knife, that's not magic and some of those guys don't even have very many hours in on training, its a matter of acting before the other guy touches you with that sharp piece of metal. For saying you put the hours in and never got a disarm off, I find that less believable than anything. Hand any two guys a marker and tell them to take it away from each other, sure they will end up with some marks on each other probably, but I can guarantee there's going to be a lot more times than zero in the span of a few minutes where they take the marker from the other guy without any technique needed. My kid tries as hard as he can to poke me with toy swords and what not and he's a lot quicker than an angry drunk with a bottle.

Is there FUD out there? Sure. One of the biggest lines of crap in martial arts is that its impossible to take a knife away from someone, people do it all the time, I've gone to plenty of 911 calls where someone's drunk uncle had to be disarmed at a barbecue or someone was holding down a mugger without a scratch on them. Are the stakes high? You bet. I can see why it would behoove you to write off knife defense as impossible and there are plenty of bullshido knife and gun defenses out there but that really means nothing. If a liquor store clerk can take a pistol away from a robber before he can fire it with zero training and nothing but adrenaline on their side then you absolutely can take a stick or a sharp piece of metal away from someone. The level of danger attributed to something has nothing to do with its overall difficulty.

 

[Hanzou]

More made up statistics. I have seen way fewer fights end up in a clinch than I have guys getting smoked out of their boots with a punch. While wrestling absolutely is a good thing, its nowhere near the silver bullet you are making it out to be. All of this theory crafting you are doing does a lot of assuming that your imaginary fighters are equally matched in height and weight, which isn't reliable outside of professional fighting. Even having something simple like two inches of reach for a competent striker is a gigantic game changer in a confrontation not to mention your wrestler needs the strength to overpower that striker.

Well we have Dan Severn smashing everyone in early UFCs except for Royce Gracie. And we have stuff like this;

And we have this (just keep the volume down);