Aikido and Law Enforcement

[Steve]

I like BJJ I just hate the BJJ attitude of "nothing else works"
When I was training Judo Some high anking Gracie Blackbelt from the midwest he owned like 4 or 5 schools in like Missouri or Nebraska (I feel bad I can't remember his name) moved out here to train with my Judo teacher for 3 months he trained daily with him. He said takedowns are severely lacking in BJJ.

I hear you, but don't think most bjj guys have an attitude that nothing else works. Hanzou, the martial talk poster child for bjj, often goes out of his way to give credit to judo, wrestling, sambo and many other styles in his posts. It's a training style issue in my opinion, where some styles are competitive and others are not. For what it's worth, I agree with hanzou in this. I think that the competitive element of judo, bjj, and wrestling are very important, and where it is missing, the style suffers.

 

[oftheherd1]

I have trained in arts that that block parry lock. Spent years training it.

I just don't rate your chances of blocking catching and doing anything to an arm before the other arm cracks you. And I am sorry about that because I would love that stuff to work.

If you trained that for years and never acquired the skill to make it work, I am at a loss for words. You said "arts," which arts and what level did you attain in each? I'm just trying to understand.

 

[ballen0351]

I hear you, but don't think most bjj guys have an attitude that nothing else works. Hanzou, the martial talk poster child for bjj, often goes out of his way to give credit to judo, wrestling, sambo and many other styles in his posts.

Its not just here Its far worse on some BJJ facebook pages I read. But even in my gym our instructor will make commemts sometimes bout how perfect BJJ is then I remind him if its so perfect why does he offers Muay Thai and boxing. We laugh then later he hurts me

It's a training style issue in my opinion, where some styles are competitive and others are not. For what it's worth, I agree with hanzou in this. I think that the competitive element of judo, bjj, and wrestling are very important, and where it is missing, the style suffers.

I don't know I've met quite a few very good martial artists that don't compete.

 

[kuniggety]

I like BJJ I just hate the BJJ attitude of "nothing else works"
When I was training Judo Some high anking Gracie Blackbelt from the midwest he owned like 4 or 5 schools in like Missouri or Nebraska (I feel bad I can't remember his name) moved out here to train with my Judo teacher for 3 months he trained daily with him. He said takedowns are severely lacking in BJJ.

One of the problems with BJJ is just the fact that the curriculum is so large. It's not set in stone and is constantly evolving. Judo curriculum? Part of BJJ. Sambo leg locks? Part of BJJ. Wrestling take downs? Part of BJJ. Aikido style wrist locks? Part of BJJ. I briefly studied at a Gracie academy and the focus was on the clinch and take downs from it. I studied a bit with a school in Bangkok and they did clinch too. My main school has been Axis which is pretty competition heavy and pull guard a lot (but were also taught some of the judo throws and wrestling take downs). Now I'm training at a UFC gym and out of the only handful of classes I've gone so far we've practiced single and double leg take downs a couple of times. You can have black belts who spent 10+ years getting there but they're still not going to be experts at everything.

 

[Buka]

I didnt say only a year I said a year exclusively a year. I train 2 to 3 days a week and I never said it wasnt useful I said it not the best choice. 1st we a limited by G.O. that I cant use any chokes, so it narrows down my options 2nd pulling off some techniques in a full uniform, duty belt, and vest can be complicated. 3rd going to the ground on purpose in some neighborhoods is not a good idea for my health. Any traing is better then no training but if I were to suggest to someone what stye to train in for police work choice #1 is cross train but if I could only pick 1 style Judo would be #1 in my opinion. Stand up art like Okinawian Karate #2

 

[Buka]

Hindsight being what it is, I'd choose Judo as well. Sure wish I had me some hindsight.

 

[ballen0351]

Hindsight being what it is, I'd choose Judo as well. Sure wish I had me some hindsight.

Me too about Alot of things not just Martial Arts.....

 

[Tez3]

What do you mean you don't grab at people. Are you saying you don't make physical arrests?

]

You go out of your way to misunderstand me yet again, I don't know why you always have to make it personal, others say the exact same thing as me and you don't make a fuss. Please notice grab is in inverted commas, think about what that means. Police officers don't go 'grabbing' people in the way you mean. You may be using 'grab' as a slang term for nabbing, pinching or any other term for arresting someone but the actual physical act of grabbing is not one police officers prefer to do, do you understand that? There's a number of reasons of that, you've had it explained to you by different people, what don't you understand? ah of course that it's not BJJ!

 

[drop bear]

You go out of your way to misunderstand me yet again, I don't know why you always have to make it personal, others say the exact same thing as me and you don't make a fuss. Please notice grab is in inverted commas, think about what that means. Police officers don't go 'grabbing' people in the way you mean. You may be using 'grab' as a slang term for nabbing, pinching or any other term for arresting someone but the actual physical act of grabbing is not one police officers prefer to do, do you understand that? There's a number of reasons of that, you've had it explained to you by different people, what don't you understand? ah of course that it's not BJJ!

You demean people for no good reason. That is why you get the responses you do.

OK. So what on earth is "grabbing" people vs grabbing people?

When I say grabbing people I mean hanging on to them. Which for me is kind of an essential part of applying a standing restraint.

Standing restraints is generally why akido is considered more suitable than say bjj in OP,s post for police.

Whether or not police like to grab people or not is kind of a footnote in this discussion. So OK. Yes police should try to resolve issues without resorting to physical violence. But should the police need to get physical then..........

 

[drop bear]

If you trained that for years and never acquired the skill to make it work, I am at a loss for words. You said "arts," which arts and what level did you attain in each? I'm just trying to understand.

I got an orange belt in jjj,something similar in judo. Did hocks system for four years. Taught it full time for one. Done three different karate's. Yellow cord thing in capoeira,6 years of mma mabye five or six years of boxing kicboxing and muay Thai.

I am not sure why you are at a loss. Fighting is a different game to training. There is all sorts of stuff you get away with in training that you won't get away with at full speed.

Look I was knocking guys over in the dojo. Wristlock this arm bar that. It just did not translate to fully resisted oponants.

 

[Tez3]

You demean people for no good reason. That is why you get the responses you do.

No I only get these responses from you and I'm not the only one you reply to like this as you know. You have been called several times by people for your attitude. You attack me and make everything personal. The rule here is to debate the post not make it into a personal argument because you don't like what someone writes because you disagree with what they say.

 

[oftheherd1]

I got an orange belt in jjj,something similar in judo. Did hocks system for four years. Taught it full time for one. Done three different karate's. Yellow cord thing in capoeira,6 years of mma mabye five or six years of boxing kicboxing and muay Thai.

I am not sure why you are at a loss. Fighting is a different game to training. There is all sorts of stuff you get away with in training that you won't get away with at full speed.

Look I was knocking guys over in the dojo. Wristlock this arm bar that. It just did not translate to fully resisted oponants.

That's impressive. I don't know what that translates into. I am inclined to think it is better to stick with one system to higher levels. Normally that would allow a person to gain confidence and proficiency in that art. Studying other arts then should not distract from the primary art, but give additional tools to add to the primary art. I am not convinced studying several arts to lower levels would be as advantageous as studying one art to a higher, proficient level. But since I haven't tried it, you may have the advantage over me.

 

[RTKDCMB]

He was passivly resisting they handled it just fine

I think the suspect wanted the Police to stop handling it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I like BJJ I just hate the BJJ attitude of "nothing else works"

In fairness, I think that's not so much a BJJ attitude as it is the attitude of a certain vocal minority of BJJ practitioners. Most of the high-level BJJ practitioners I know hold black belt or black belt-equivalent rank in at least one other system and are appreciative of the skills and knowledge to be found in other arts.

Helio Gracie, along with his sons, was a big salesman for the idea that jiu-jitsu always beats everything. (Perhaps because it was to his financial advantage to do so.) However I think the wider BJJ community has started moving away from this concept.

When I was training Judo Some high anking Gracie Blackbelt from the midwest he owned like 4 or 5 schools in like Missouri or Nebraska (I feel bad I can't remember his name) moved out here to train with my Judo teacher for 3 months he trained daily with him. He said takedowns are severely lacking in BJJ.

There are exceptions - instructors who place as much emphasis on takedown skills as on ground skills - but they are unfortunately in the minority. One of my current projects is working on upgrading my mediocre takedown skills so I can spend more time teaching my students to be better at takedowns.

 

[drop bear]

That's impressive. I don't know what that translates into. I am inclined to think it is better to stick with one system to higher levels. Normally that would allow a person to gain confidence and proficiency in that art. Studying other arts then should not distract from the primary art, but give additional tools to add to the primary art. I am not convinced studying several arts to lower levels would be as advantageous as studying one art to a higher, proficient level. But since I haven't tried it, you may have the advantage over me.

Probably for a different thread.

 

[drop bear]

No I only get these responses from you and I'm not the only one you reply to like this as you know. You have been called several times by people for your attitude. You attack me and make everything personal. The rule here is to debate the post not make it into a personal argument because you don't like what someone writes because you disagree with what they say.

No. You get that response from others. You took a snipe at me in the post where you were confused why you get the hard time that you do.

"here's a number of reasons of that, you've had it explained to you by different people, what don't you understand? ah of course that it's not BJJ!"

Apparently there is a rule about that. People have pulled you up on this. You just flatly deny you are doing it.

Anyway you asked I answered. So in the intrest of getting back on topic. Let's get back on topic.

 

[Tez3]

No. You get that response from others. You took a snipe at me in the post where you were confused why you get the hard time that you do.

"here's a number of reasons of that, you've had it explained to you by different people, what don't you understand? ah of course that it's not BJJ!"

Apparently there is a rule about that. People have pulled you up on this. You just flatly deny you are doing it.

Anyway you asked I answered. So in the intrest of getting back on topic. Let's get back on topic.

You realise none of that makes sense? I don't at all consider I get a hard time from anyone here, I find the conversations stimulating on the whole, nearly always informative and apart from a couple very friendly. You make a point of picking me out, of making it personal which would be fine if I actually knew what you were talking about. You have said several times now that you consider 'conversation' on here to be sparring and someone preferably you has to win. Ok you win and back you go on ignore lol, byeee.

 

[Skullpunch]

That's impressive. I don't know what that translates into. I am inclined to think it is better to stick with one system to higher levels. Normally that would allow a person to gain confidence and proficiency in that art. Studying other arts then should not distract from the primary art, but give additional tools to add to the primary art. I am not convinced studying several arts to lower levels would be as advantageous as studying one art to a higher, proficient level. But since I haven't tried it, you may have the advantage over me.

This depends on the goal. You may want to be just a boxer or just a muay thai fighter, but if you want to be the best striker you can be it would benefit you to work on both, even if you advance more slowly in each style.

Same with mixing up the ground and the standup. As much as I'm a fan of judo and bjj, I'm not terribly fond of the idea of looking like a retarded octopus when I throw fists.

Also, where are we drawing the line when you compare multiple arts at "lower" levels vs. one art at a "higher" level? That makes a big difference. If I have a purple belt in 2 grappling based arts and 2 striking based arts and you have a 3rd degree black belt but in only one art, we have a very different discussion on our hands than if we make my purple belts into orange belts (the belts here are a subjective metaphor for skill level, not to be taken literally).

 

[drop bear]

This depends on the goal. You may want to be just a boxer or just a muay thai fighter, but if you want to be the best striker you can be it would benefit you to work on both, even if you advance more slowly in each style.

Same with mixing up the ground and the standup. As much as I'm a fan of judo and bjj, I'm not terribly fond of the idea of looking like a retarded octopus when I throw fists.

Also, where are we drawing the line when you compare multiple arts at "lower" levels vs. one art at a "higher" level? That makes a big difference. If I have a purple belt in 2 grappling based arts and 2 striking based arts and you have a 3rd degree black belt but in only one art, we have a very different discussion on our hands than if we make my purple belts into orange belts (the belts here are a subjective metaphor for skill level, not to be taken literally).

I did a lot of striking to a high ish level and then suplimented with arts that took my fancy. So bulk boxing kicboxing and some other stuff.

I was looking for the right fit and they hadn't invented mma yet.

 

[oftheherd1]

Probably for a different thread.

Well, considering the way this thread has already drifted, it's probably OK for you to comment on my thoughts. Then if there is sufficient posts/interest about it, one of us can start another thread.