BJJ Teacher Roy Dean on Aikido....

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RTKDCMB

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If he wasn't resisting, the wrestler wouldn't have failed at the initial takedown.

Again, stop making excuses for the Aikidoka's failure.

There is a difference between not fully resisting and doing things for them.I am not making excuses I just not allowing you to make the video out to be something it isn't, namely a challenge match that 'proves' Aikido is inferior to other grappling styles.

Yeah, he didn't want to get smashed while he was trying to promote his submission style.
Pure speculation.
 
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Spinedoc

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competitive element kinda goes against the teachings of Aikido

This is the part that everyone keeps missing. Many, many, many of the students that I've seen in Aikido, do not study it with the intention of ever fighting. My own sensei, states that he intentionally chose Aikido when he was looking for a martial art because he did not want to ever enter a competition. As I have stated before, anecdotally, many of the students in aikido tend to be professionals, who often have very competitive careers. My own theory, is that aikido gives them a chance to find balance. Just because this is not the same as your perspective does not make it wrong.

Hanzou, while you and others seem to place an emphasis in competition. Not everyone thinks that way. Heck, the owner of the martial arts dojo that we rent space at, runs a taekwondo and hapkido school. He also rents space out for Okinawan karate, BJJ, and judo.

He is steadfastly opposed to competition in martial arts. He does not allow his TKD or Hapkido students to enter competitions at all. He feels that competition in martial arts breeds a very unhealthy attitude and that fighting is a serious thing that should never be taken lightly as he feels competitions do. He also feels that competition creates bad technique as people learn to score points, but not to actually fight.

This is not an aikido guy, but rather a taekwondo and hapkido guy who has been practicing since the 1970's.

Most aikidoka, do not ever train with the intent of trying to compete and the whole notion of competition, simply doesn't work for them. While other martial artists may not understand that, most people in aikido simply don't care.
 

Hanzou

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Hanzou, while you and others seem to place an emphasis in competition. Not everyone thinks that way. Heck, the owner of the martial arts dojo that we rent space at, runs a taekwondo and hapkido school. He also rents space out for Okinawan karate, BJJ, and judo.

He is steadfastly opposed to competition in martial arts. He does not allow his TKD or Hapkido students to enter competitions at all. He feels that competition in martial arts breeds a very unhealthy attitude and that fighting is a serious thing that should never be taken lightly as he feels competitions do. He also feels that competition creates bad technique as people learn to score points, but not to actually fight.

This is not an aikido guy, but rather a taekwondo and hapkido guy who has been practicing since the 1970's.

Most aikidoka, do not ever train with the intent of trying to compete and the whole notion of competition, simply doesn't work for them. While other martial artists may not understand that, most people in aikido simply don't care.

I suppose everyone is entitled to their personal beliefs, but it's quite interesting that you don't see the same level of disdain towards competition when it comes to stories of "O'Sensei" or similar MA founders and legends beating up western boxers and Judoka back in the day.

I mean, your OP kind of celebrates O'Sensei fighting and beating sport fighters.
 

Flying Crane

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You can use whatever language you like. You can call it a friendly sparring contest, or a mutual test of each other's abilities. The results are the same.

Oh you poor child. I get it, you want to eat at at the adults table. You're not quite there yet. Maybe next year.
 
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Spinedoc

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I suppose everyone is entitled to their personal beliefs, but it's quite interesting that you don't see the same level of disdain towards competition when it comes to stories of "O'Sensei" or similar MA founders and legends beating up western boxers and Judoka back in the day.

I mean, your OP kind of celebrates O'Sensei fighting and beating sport fighters.

No, you missed the point. The OP was meant to acknowledge a BJJ teacher who was speaking fondly of Aikido......it was not about old stories of O'Sensei.....that was what you focused on.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Most aikidoka, do not ever train with the intent of trying to compete and the whole notion of competition, simply doesn't work for them. While other martial artists may not understand that, most people in aikido simply don't care.
So, I think that goes a long way in explaining a lot of the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art.
Your statement just contradict to your own post - Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches.

I'm quite confused about the purpose of this thread discussion. Are you trying to say that "Aikido is superior than Judo because Aikido guys don't care about competition?"

Without competition, how and where will you be able to test your combat skill? You can

- "develop" your combat skill through partner drills,
- "polish" your combat skill through solo drills,
- "enhance" your combat skill through weight equipment training,

but you have to "test" your combat skill through competition.

I have seen many students who has trained "hip throw" partner drills over 10,000 times. During the partner drills training his "hip throw" speed, coordination are all perfect. But in competition, he can't use his "hip throw" successfully even once.

This is why I don't believe a MA style that doesn't emphasize on "competition" can be superior than a MA style that emphasizes on "competition". No matter how much that I love my primary long fist system, I would never say that long fist is superior than boxing. The reason is simple. When a long fist guy is punching into the thin air, a boxer tries to meet his fist on his opponent's face.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I mean, your OP kind of celebrates O'Sensei fighting and beating sport fighters.
I don't even train Judo, but I do train "sport". The voice from the "sport" side should be heard as well.

I train "sport" for

- combat skill,
- health, and
- fun.

When

- you can use your "single leg" to take your opponent down 7 times in a role (from the offense skill point of view),
- your opponent throws 20 punches at your head and still can't hit your head (from the defense skill point of view),

during competition, you will smile in your dream for the next 3 nights. Even money won't be able to buy that kind of "fun". The nice thing about "sport" is nobody will get hurt if both follow the rule. This way you can have unlimited amount of "fun" through "sport".
 
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Hanzou

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No, you missed the point. The OP was meant to acknowledge a BJJ teacher who was speaking fondly of Aikido......it was not about old stories of O'Sensei.....that was what you focused on.

A BJJ teacher who also teaches Aikido, and compares what Ueshiba (supposedly) did against a group of Judoka to what Royce Gracie did at the UFC.

The real point is this; If Aikidoka truly "didn't care" about competition they wouldn't feel compelled to consistently bring up legends of O'Sensei competitively beating burly Judo black belts once upon a time in Japan.
 
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Spinedoc

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Your statement just contradict to your own post - Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches.

I'm quite confused about the purpose of this thread discussion. Are you trying to say that "Aikido is superior than Judo because Aikido guys don't care about competition?"

Without competition, how and where will you be able to test your combat skill? You can

- "develop" your combat skill through partner drills,
- "polish" your combat skill through solo drills,
- "enhance" your combat skill through weight equipment training,

but you have to "test" your combat skill through competition.

I have seen many students who has trained "hip throw" partner drills over 10,000 times. During the partner drills training his "hip throw" speed, coordination are all perfect. But in competition, he can't use his "hip throw" successfully even once.

This is why I don't believe a MA style that doesn't emphasize on "competition" can be superior than a MA style that emphasizes on "competition". No matter how much that I love my primary long fist system, I would never say that long fist is superior than boxing. The reason is simple. When a long fist guy is punching into the thin air, a boxer tries to meet his fist on his opponent's face.

Again, you keep attributing quotes to me that I did not say. I never said anything about aikido beating judo, Roy Dean said something about it in his interview, but you keep putting the wrong quotes with me. Not sure why you are doing that?????j

These were Roy Deans words, not mine. To be honest, I don't even care about the old stories of O'Sensei, beyond the fact that he impressed a number of judoka and other martial artists enough that they came to study with him. Whether he beat them or not is irrelevant....I boxed and wrestled when I was younger, and it was interesting, but I will never compete in fighting again.

I've even told my BJJ teacher that I have no interest in competition, and I'm primarily doing it to learn, strengthen my aikido, and get in better shape. He was completely cool with that.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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"didn't care" about competition ...
If you (general YOU) don't care about competition, you won't spend enough time to dig into a solution of certain problem. Yesterday in my class, a guy (he always tests his skill in MMA gym) wanted to know how to counter "arm drag" that wrestlers use it so often on the mat. He likes to spin his body to the side of his opponent. When he did that, his opponent could spin with him. We have seen many videos online how to use "arm drag" to set up something. But we don't see too many videos about how to counter it. We worked on 3 different counters for "arm drag". IMO, if you don't spend enough training time to train it, when your opponent uses "arm drag" on you, your body won't be able to react properly. If you don't compete and if you only train striking art, you may never care about "arm drag" at all. Only competition can force you to face a certain problem and then find solution for it even if that solution may not come from your own style.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Again, you keep attributing quotes to me that I did not say. I never said anything about aikido beating judo, Roy Dean said something about it in his interview, but you keep putting the wrong quotes with me. Not sure why you are doing that?????
Great link...
When you said, "Great link..." I have to assume that you do agree with what Roy Dean has said. If I don't agree with someone opinion, I would never say, "Great link ..."

I could be wrong and you can tell me that.
 
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drop bear

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Again, you keep attributing quotes to me that I did not say. I never said anything about aikido beating judo, Roy Dean said something about it in his interview, but you keep putting the wrong quotes with me. Not sure why you are doing that?????j

These were Roy Deans words, not mine. To be honest, I don't even care about the old stories of O'Sensei, beyond the fact that he impressed a number of judoka and other martial artists enough that they came to study with him. Whether he beat them or not is irrelevant....I boxed and wrestled when I was younger, and it was interesting, but I will never compete in fighting again.

I've even told my BJJ teacher that I have no interest in competition, and I'm primarily doing it to learn, strengthen my aikido, and get in better shape. He was completely cool with that.

It is not that competition is necessary to do the art. Anyone can train martial arts.

But you lose a level of progression and understanding if you don't.

So yeah. You don't have to compete in anything.
 

drop bear

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Training in general is full of false positives due to the nature of the training itself. There are two things that tend not to be covered.

Someone who does not know you or like you.

Someone who is fully committed to going at you full stink.

These change what will be high percentage and low percentage techniques.
 

ballen0351

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Training in general is full of false positives due to the nature of the training itself. There are two things that tend not to be covered.

Someone who does not know you or like you.

Someone who is fully committed to going at you full stink.

These change what will be high percentage and low percentage techniques.
and Competition doesn't address either of your concerns because you have rules and refs.
 

drop bear

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and Competition doesn't address either of your concerns because you have rules and refs.

You have rules and refs regardless of what training you do. It is not like you turn up to training and you get shanked in the carpark.
 

Steve

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If you. Train for competition, you at least have a chance to execute your techniques in the context for which they are intended. If you don't compete, you don't even have that. How important this is, is a matter if opinion. I think it's very important, and others don't.
 
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