BJJ Teacher Roy Dean on Aikido....

[Spinedoc]

Great link...

http://www.grapplearts.com/roy-dean-bjj-aikido-judo-wrestling-and-the-martial-artists-path/

There are so many lessons in Aikido that I’ve been able to translate over to jiu jitsu of all kinds, and BJJ.

So Aikido, like all martial arts, goes in and out of popularity. But it’s powerful. And if you get together with a really good practitioner of Aikido, it can be impressive and it’s not to be underestimated. That’s the first rule of being a martial artist. Respect everyone. Don’t underestimate anybody because that can be a bad day for you.

And particularly against Judo players at that time, when you read stories about the Judo guys challenging Morihei Ueshiba, the Judo guys, like Kenji Tomiki, when he went and attacked him, he was like, “This old man, I’m not going to attack this old man.” [Ueshiba] said “No, go ahead and attack me.” So when Kenji Tomiki attacked him, he found himself thrown to the other end of the room. And he was like, “Wait a minute. Alright, let me do that again.” He’s like, “Okay, you can do it again.” So [Tomiki] attacked him again with everything he had and he mysteriously found himself thrown to the other side of the room. Then he bowed and said I would humbly like to become your student.

And so what was that? Well, a lot of it is technological superiority. I’m not saying the techniques of Aikido are superior to those of Judo. I’m saying that he was using a technology, basically a form of standing grappling. As soon as somebody goes in to reach for you, you blend with it. In Judo, you just grab each other and then you begin. But because he was working at a different range of motion, but really no different than Royce Gracie in the first couple UFCs. Because he was working in that altered range of combat that the Judo guy wasn’t familiar with, he had, clearly, the upper hand.

So, I think that goes a long way in explaining a lot of the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art.

 

[Hanzou]

No offense to Mr. Dean, but until we see an Aikidoka enter MMA and do well his comparison here rings a little hollow.

I mean on one hand we have a legend/story told by Tomiki, and on the other we have multiple verifiable incidents that occurred in history that we can view and analyze.

I mean, I'm not calling Tomiki a liar or anything, but the evidence simply doesn't back up his claims here. If Ueshiba's Aikido was so dominating over Judo, why did people continue to take Judo? When Catch Wrestlers beat Judoka, many Judoka actively incorporated Catch into their fighting style. Maeda, the grandfather of Bjj being a prime example.

Further, why don't we see Aikidoka dominating Judoka today?

 

[lklawson]

And particularly against Judo players at that time, when you read stories about the Judo guys challenging Morihei Ueshiba, the Judo guys, like Kenji Tomiki, when he went and attacked him, he was like, “This old man, I’m not going to attack this old man.” [Ueshiba] said “No, go ahead and attack me.” So when Kenji Tomiki attacked him, he found himself thrown to the other end of the room. And he was like, “Wait a minute. Alright, let me do that again.” He’s like, “Okay, you can do it again.” So [Tomiki] attacked him again with everything he had and he mysteriously found himself thrown to the other side of the room. Then he bowed and said I would humbly like to become your student.

I'll have to double check in Aikido Tradition and the Competitive Edge, by Nariyama and Shishida, but I'm pretty sure that story is apocryphal.

I’m saying that he was using a technology, basically a form of standing grappling. As soon as somebody goes in to reach for you, you blend with it. In Judo, you just grab each other and then you begin. But because he was working at a different range of motion, but really no different than Royce Gracie in the first couple UFCs. Because he was working in that altered range of combat that the Judo guy wasn’t familiar with, he had, clearly, the upper hand.

Hmmm... This is not how I was taught. Judo, for sport, begins at the grips. Judo for self defense begins well before that, so I have been taught. This agrees with research that I have done on early judo as well. It also agrees with the internal history of Danzan Ryu which claims that Okazaki learned non-sport/self defense Judo while in Japan and codified that as Danzan Ryu.

I guess it's hard to fault anyone for not knowing that. Few people teach (and fewer practice) some of what's in Judo's "official" curriculum. How many Judo instructors regularly teach Judo's atemi waza, leg locks, or the old "stomping" style of osoto gari?

So, I think that goes a long way in explaining a lot of the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art.

I'm also inclined to believe those stories were largely apocryphal as well.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

No offense to Mr. Dean, but until we see an Aikidoka enter MMA and do well his comparison here rings a little hollow.

I mean on one hand we have a legend/story told by Tomiki, and on the other we have multiple verifiable incidents that occurred in history that we can view and analyze.

I mean, I'm not calling Tomiki a liar or anything, but the evidence simply doesn't back up his claims here. If Ueshiba's Aikido was so dominating over Judo, why did people continue to take Judo? When Catch Wrestlers beat Judoka, many Judoka actively incorporated Catch into their fighting style. Maeda, the grandfather of Bjj being a prime example.

Further, why don't we see Aikidoka dominating Judoka today?

In the old days, so it is claimed, Ueshiba supposedly wouldn't train anyone who didn't have a solid base in another martial art. Today, almost no one starts Aikido with a solid fighting foundation in some other art.

Forgive me, Aikidoka, but I've come to believe that Aikido is Algebra to everything else' basic Arithmetic. Aikido has such a narrowly focused range that, in order to really understand and utilize what is being taught, you usually need a good base in fighting. Once you can fight, then you are prepared to learn the subtlety of Aikido. Until then it's just people trying to learn to do tricks.

No, this isn't a popular notion among Aikidoka.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[drop bear]

If you fight you can get away with being good at a limited number of techniques. Akido guy really only needed to be exceptional at one or two throws to monster everybody in the room.

Don't know if it was a true tale But there is potential that it could have been.

Otherwise I am happy to Spar akido guys in the hope one will towel me up and I can learn stuff.

 

[Spinedoc]

Kirk,

I've heard that before...the algebra thing, and I would tend to agree. I've studied multiple other martial arts, wrestled, trained boxing for awhile, and I have to say, that Aikido is the most subtle and nuanced to use. At least against a resisting, non compliant opponent. WHICH we do. I cannot speak for all dojos, but we increase resistance over time.

The reason I found this, was that I have been training BJJ in addition to Aikido and Iaido for a little while. Why? Well, primarily, because the BJJ class is right before the Aikido class at the same dojo. I can get a 3 hour workout in then and thought it would help my fitness/conditioning, etc.

What I have found is interesting. Speaking for myself...BJJ and Aikido are the same. At least in principle. It's all about balance, position, control, speed, etc. They are essentially 2 sides of the same coin. I feel that my Aikido has improved, and I am progressing more quickly in BJJ because of my Aikido.

Thankfully, my BJJ instructor is a cool guy, and has a lot of respect for Aikido. He says "Same principles, different focus".....

YMMV.

Mike

 

[Spinedoc]

Also, when in my BJJ class I surprised one of the senior BJJ students with a surprise nikyo. He was rather impressed and asked me to show him how to do that.

Surprise nikyo is the best. LOL. Fun in aikido as well. One of my Aikido sensei's always says "There's always another way". So, working with him on morotedori kokyunage, and he was resisting to the point where I simply couldn't move him......so, went from morotedori kokyunage to morotedori nikyo.....He was impressed after he got up....LOL.

 

[Spinedoc]

I guess it's hard to fault anyone for not knowing that. Few people teach (and fewer practice) some of what's in Judo's "official" curriculum. How many Judo instructors regularly teach Judo's atemi waza, leg locks, or the old "stomping" style of osoto gari?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yeah, Aikido also contains stuff not taught in most Aikido dojos. For example, kick defenses and ankle locks. Many Aikido dojos don't ever practice them, and while my dojo probably does not practice them as much as we should, we do know of them, and do practice them from time to time.

It's hard, because the ukemi for practicing them is actually quite difficult....

BUT, they exist within the Aikikai Aikido curriculum.

 

[kuniggety]

Also, when in my BJJ class I surprised one of the senior BJJ students with a surprise nikyo. He was rather impressed and asked me to show him how to do that.

When I was doing a gauntlet roll for my blue belt in BJJ, I had a guy catch me in a wrist lock. I was tired but hanging on through all of the other white belts. Then I get this new guy and I pull him into my guard. From inside my guard he pressed my arm down and I thought he was going for an Americana and it was like I got this but then he suddenly grabs my hand with his other hand and wrist locks me. Totally unexpected and I tapped. Turns out he was an aikidoka.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

he was working in that altered range of combat that the Judo guy wasn’t familiar with, he had, clearly, the upper hand... the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art.

I'm not a Judo guy, but I don't believe this is a true story for the following reasons:

1. In Judo, you train to use your skill to deal with resistance opponent. In Aikido, you only train your skill to deal with cooperated opponent.
2. Judo guys has leg skills such as block, sweep, scoop, hook, lift, spring, twist, sticky, ... Those leg skills are not trained in Aikido.
3. Judo has body contact techniques (back touch chest) such as hip throw, shoulder throw, bear hug, waist wrap, ... Aikido has no such body contact techniques.
4. Judo has tournament that Judo guys can use it to develop their techniques. Aikido doesn't even have tournament environment for their guys to test their skill.
5. In Judo, there exist no technique that you can just hold on your opponent's wrist and throw him. In Aikido, such technique does exist. But in reality, nobody has ever seen such "wrist control only" throw worked in MMA yet.
6. I have seen good judo guys competed in wrestling tournament and won. I have not seen any Aikido guys ever win in any wrestling tournament yet.
7. ...

 

[RTKDCMB]

If Ueshiba's Aikido was so dominating over Judo, why did people continue to take Judo?

Could it be perhaps that many people like Judo more than Aikido? BJJ dominated over the other arts (not actually the whole arts, just those specific competitors) during the first 4 UFC's yet people still continued to to take those styles. That is why your logic is flawed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Further, why don't we see Aikidoka dominating Judoka today?

Agree with you 100% there. It's great national honor to win the Olympic Judo gold metal. If Aikido can be used to "enhance" Judo, we should see today's Olympic Judo guys all cross train Aikido, but we just haven't seen that happen today.

As far as I know, the Judo "grip fight" is not taught until in the advance training level. Does "grip fight" ever taught in Aikido? I don't think so.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I'm not a Judo guy, but I don't believe this is a true story for the following reasons:

It may also be true depending on how you define a 'few challenge matches'.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If Aikido can be used to "enhance" Judo, we should see today's Olympic Judo guys all cross train Aikido, but we just haven't seen that happen today.

I don't know much about the Olympics but is t it allowed in Olympic Judo to use techniques from other styles?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't know much about the Olympics but is t it allowed in Olympic Judo to use techniques from other styles?

In China, the Olympic Judo coach Wang De-Yin taught the Chinese national Olympic Judo team in

- Judo,
- Chinese wrestling, and
- western wrestling.

As far as I know, Wang didn't teach his team members any Aikido. Those Olympic Judo coach would try anything to help his team to win.

The grip fight is not that emphasized in daily Judo tournament. But in Olympic Judo, the "grip fight" is getting more and more emphasized.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not a Judo guy, but I don't believe this is a true story for the following reasons:

1. In Judo, you train to use your skill to deal with resistance opponent. In Aikido, you only train your skill to deal with cooperated opponent.
2. Judo guys has leg skills such as block, sweep, scoop, hook, lift, spring, twist, sticky, ... Those leg skills are not trained in Aikido.
3. Judo has body contact techniques (back touch chest) such as hip throw, shoulder throw, bear hug, waist wrap, ... Aikido has no such body contact techniques.
4. Judo has tournament that Judo guys can use it to develop their techniques. Aikido doesn't even have tournament environment for their guys to test their skill.
5. In Judo, there exist no technique that you can just hold on your opponent's wrist and throw him. In Aikido, such technique does exist. But in reality, nobody has ever seen such "wrist control only" throw worked in MMA yet.
6. I have seen good judo guys competed in wrestling tournament and won. I have not seen any Aikido guys ever win in any wrestling tournament yet.
7. ...

1. Yes Aikido does
2.Yes Aikido does
3. Yes Aikido does
4 Yes Aikido does
5 MMA is not the final say on all things
6Have you obsereved every Wresteling tournament?

 

[Hanzou]

Could it be perhaps that many people like Judo more than Aikido? BJJ dominated over the other arts (not actually the whole arts, just those specific competitors) during the first 4 UFC's yet people still continued to to take those styles. That is why your logic is flawed.

Yet Bjj also went from obscurity into becoming one of the most popular martial arts in the world, and becoming a staple of NHB/MMA competition because of the first UFCs. It also forced people to recognize that grappling is an important part of fighting.

Bjj's impact on the martial arts landscape is pretty easy to see.

What's interesting currently is how Bjj and MMA are impacting arts like Aikido. I've read a few articles stating that Aikido is losing popularity because of its apparent lack of fighting ability.

 

[ballen0351]

Yet Bjj also went from obscurity into becoming one of the most popular martial arts in the world,

Not even top 5

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yet Bjj also went from obscurity into becoming one of the most popular martial arts in the world, and becoming a staple of NHB/MMA competition because of the first UFCs. It also forced people to recognize that grappling is an important part of fighting.

Bjj's impact on the martial arts landscape is pretty easy to see.

What's interesting currently is how Bjj and MMA are impacting arts like Aikido. I've read a few articles stating that Aikido is losing popularity because of its apparent lack of fighting ability.

Most people don't study a particular martial art because of its popularity they study them because those individual arts have what they want in an art.

 

[Hanzou]

Most people don't study a particular martial art because of its popularity they study them because those individual arts have what they want in an art.

That was never my argument. My argument was that Bjj's dominance in the UFC had a profound impact on Bjj itself, and martial arts in general. Something that didn't happen with Aikido, which would seem strange if it was truly stomping Judo.