Adding ground fighting to Okinawan karate

[tellner]

Allenjp, you make a good point. If you're down you have to know how to handle yourself there. Absolutely. But submission wrestling is only one of the effective forms of groundfighting. Some of the RBSD, police defensive tactics and even martial arts have ways of dealing with the situation that stress different aspects of conflict on the ground. Some of them are remarkably mobile on the floor. Others stress protecting and deploying weapons. And a few of them have very good methods for disengaging and getting back up.

It's not always easy, but they have a good enough real-world track record that they can not be completely discounted. A lot depends on what the other guys are trying to do to you. In my painful experience it includes things like standing there and trying to kick you to death as often as not. I haven't met too many who tried for a submission. That may just be luck on my part. But I can only go on what I've experienced and what people with more interesting lives report.

 

[allenjp]

Yes tellner I agree submission groundfighting is not the end all-be all to being on the ground. I am just saying that whatever method you choose to train it should be viable for working ON THE GROUND, because you simply cannot realistically rely on being able to get back up every time.

BTW, I do not train to go for "submissions" in SD situations. The critiques on training in "submissions" is always perplexing to me. What is commonly referred to as "submission" is not a move or technique. It is the act of your opponent asking for mercy by acknowledging that he is not willing to offer further violence to you, and you responding by granting the mercy requsted and not continuing to apply the technique until serious injury or death is the result. If I apply juji gatame in a SD situation, I am not looking for my opponent to tap, I am going to break his arm beyond recognition so that he can no loner use that arm against me, and then I am going for a choke or for his other arm, and continuing the fight. If someone attacks me with a knife and I am skilled or lucky enough to disarm them and apply Hadaka Jime I will not let go when they start tapping. I will continue to apply it until they are unconcious so that I can disable them from hurting me while they are still unconcious, or in an extreme situation, I might not let go until they are dead.

We also work extensively on techniques for defense on the ground with a standing opponent.

 

[chinto]

Original Tode is not restricted to standing up with your opponent and exchanging blows. It's just not sensible. Especially if you throw sand at someone and the wrestle them down to deliver some very decisive conclusion to an encounter. It is also highly unfeasible to believe that every movement in Kata is striking. Therefore it should be very logical to assume that Okinawan Tode has in fact a diverse and effective array of grappling techniques that should be taught.

Yes, and traditionaly they were and are .. at our dojo the grapling that is there is tought.. as well as the broke kumite that is also traditional!

 

[fuyugoshi]

Hi Allen

There have been a lot of comments made here about limiting your groundfighting training to only being able to get back up once taken down. No offense but, bad idea.

In an ideal situation, people should train standing fighting as well as groundfighting; however, it is time consuming, and we all have to prioritize. If the student has the time to get also deep instruction in groundfighting, judo, muay thai, and whatever effective art is available, good for him; however, most people train three times a week in sessions of 1.5 hours each: total of 4.5 hours a week. Each karate instructor must decide how much class time a week is going to be destined to groundfighting, how much time is going to be to weapons (traditional and modern) training, and how much to standing training. Under those conditions, the basic skill on the floor is how to get on your feet again.

However, [...] The plain and simple fact is this: it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to avoid being taken down by someone who knows how to do it, and is determined, or even by someone who is just plain bigger than you.

True. That is why karate is the art of running away as fast as possible
But, if while running away, you end up on the ground, then you must remember all you training: I mean, kata is full of takedowns, throws, sweeps, locks, etc. Everytime you drill one takedown, you must drill at least a counter. So you need to learn how to apply the technique, and what to do if it is applied onto you. Just that is a lot of groundworking, although is not like the BJJ matches or wrestling matches.

[...] If someone gets you on the ground you had BETTER know what you are doing down there. Getting back up is great, and should be the first thing you do. But it is just impractical to think that you will always be able to get back up.

I totally agree. However, the first problem with too many karate schools is that they don't practice the takedowns that are/were part of their systems, so they have forgotten how to take someone down, and what to do if somebody else tried to do the same with them.

In other words, crosstraining is desirable, training more hours a week is a need, but rediscovering their own systems is a must! At the end, the problem is time!

 

[chinto]

Not all styles of Karate or instructors have forgotten the grappling and brakes and throws and locks that are a part of the system.. the style I study teaches them all still... many do not, but we do.

 

[allenjp]

Fuyugoshi, I do not disagree with anything you said...

 

[searcher]

Not all styles of Karate or instructors have forgotten the grappling and brakes and throws and locks that are a part of the system.. the style I study teaches them all still... many do not, but we do.

As does My Karate instructor and myself. We have been fortunate enough to all have a heavy influence from outside sources as well. If you are not practiced in all aspects of combat, you will fail to defend when faced with a particular facet. You don't have to take it to the gorund or even like training for the ground, but you had better have a good idea of what can happen on the ground.

 

[chinto]

I don't mean to stir the pot, but...

There have been a lot of comments made here about limiting your groundfighting training to only being able to get back up once taken down. No offense but, bad idea.

Now, before you get started on me about real SD vs. sport fighting situations, let me say that even though my training up to now has been almost all groundfighting, I agree that the ground is the last place you want to be in a SD scenario. I get that, and I am not advocating that anyone go getting on the ground in that situation.

However, if you do get taken down despite your best efforts, or if you fall down, slip, or whatever else, and you're up against someone who knows what they're doing on the ground, or is just plainly a huge strong behemoth, good luck getting back up. It just aint as easy as it seems, and it is impractical to expect to rely on that as your only means of defense on the ground. Even if you do manage to get back up, it's highly likely you may go down again. The plain and simple fact is this: it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to avoid being taken down by someone who knows how to do it, and is determined, or even by someone who is just plain bigger than you.

So to cut it short, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If someone gets you on the ground you had BETTER know what you are doing down there. Getting back up is great, and should be the first thing you do. But it is just impractical to think that you will always be able to get back up.

All that said I congratulate you guys for even thinking about incorporating groundfighting into your training. Many don't, and also many groundfighters don't train stand up because they are convinced that their way is better. In my opinion, cross training can only make you better.

there is ground fighting techniques in the kata.. also like I said getting up is what you want to do. but you for instance go for a mount.. I am going to grab your nuts and rip them off or take your eyes or throat out.... I assume if you attack me on the street you wish to take my life. so its going to be over very quickly... no sportsman like behavior at all. most of the grapplers I have talked to shudder at the mention of fingers grabbed and broken calfs bitten and eyes and groins grabbed and hooked... a lot of the stuff that works under rules is not as effective when you take the fighter safety rules out.

 

[Andrew Green]

there is ground fighting techniques in the kata.. also like I said getting up is what you want to do. but you for instance go for a mount.. I am going to grab your nuts and rip them off or take your eyes or throat out.... I assume if you attack me on the street you wish to take my life. so its going to be over very quickly... no sportsman like behavior at all. most of the grapplers I have talked to shudder at the mention of fingers grabbed and broken calfs bitten and eyes and groins grabbed and hooked... a lot of the stuff that works under rules is not as effective when you take the fighter safety rules out.

... umm... no.

If a good grappler mounts you you will be doing no such thing, even if they weren't pounding your head into the pavement one of the first and most important things done from just about any position is to kill the arms.

But, lets suppose you did get a hold of someones junk from that position, your hands are down and you are on your back, there is a good chance they will free their junk by punching you in the face, which will bounce of the ground, until you let go.

Now, also remember that while you can use fouls, so can the grappler. Grapplers are not bound by magical law that stats that they must follow all of the rules anymore then karate practitioners are bound by the rules of point fighting. So who will be in a better position to use those fouls, the one that is in control on the ground or the one being controlled?

 

[chinto01]

I would just like to add my 2 cents worth here. I have been studying Shorin Ryu for the past 20 years. This past year on the side I have added BJJ to my training. Why? To tell you the truth I thought it would be fun and it is. What have I realized from my training to date? First in the beginning I hated to be on the ground, you feel like a fish out of water. Now I am a very big supporter of Okinawan karate but I can tell you that our focus is not on the ground. It is focused on the stand up aspect of fighting. Can the principles of stand up fighting be brought to the ground? Absolutely! But if you do not practice them on the ground then they will be useless because your comfort level is not there. So if you were to ask me which is better the seasoned grappler or the stand up guy in the ground I may respond and ask you which way the wind is blowing, or I may use a line from one of my favorite movies "anyone can be beaten on any given Sunday."

 

[Brian S]

there is ground fighting techniques in the kata.. also like I said getting up is what you want to do. but you for instance go for a mount.. I am going to grab your nuts and rip them off or take your eyes or throat out.... I assume if you attack me on the street you wish to take my life. so its going to be over very quickly... no sportsman like behavior at all. most of the grapplers I have talked to shudder at the mention of fingers grabbed and broken calfs bitten and eyes and groins grabbed and hooked... a lot of the stuff that works under rules is not as effective when you take the fighter safety rules out.

Sorry, there is no historical evidence pointing to groundfighting in kata. Only recently has 'tegumi' and related efforts speculated about groundfighting in karate to make up for what the art lacks. There is no need to validate karate as a whole art unless you are trying to sell something 'Abernathy, McCarthy' etc...

 

[Andrew Green]

Tegumi always struck me as more of a Sumo like sport then a ground fighting one from what I have read about it.

 

[Brian S]

Tegumi always struck me as more of a Sumo like sport then a ground fighting one from what I have read about it.

Exactly, and it was seperate from karate practice imo. There is no farming and fishing in kata either, so it's ok.

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

Adding ground fighting is a great idea. I study Shorin Ryu, and at my dojo we study grappling/judo techinques on certain nights. My sensi is friends with another sensi who teaches Judo, and he comes in occasionally and teaches/practices with us.