Adding ground fighting to Okinawan karate

[Explorer]

OK. There's been a lot of talk about whether ground fighting appeared in the traditional or classical Okinawan arts. The discussion is interesting only from a historical perspective as it doesn't answer the question of whether we should be teaching ground techniques within the body of our curriculum.

So, SHOULD we be teaching ground fighting in karate. The follow up question is, of course, how might we go about adding ground fighting to our extant systems?

For me it's obvious that in order to teach relevant self defense, ground techniques are a MUST. I'm a wrestler from waaaayyy back so I include some wrestling concepts. I'm also acutely aware that Jujitsu is very popular today and my guys might conceivably face these techniques so the instructional team is training in Jujitsu and we're adding the concepts to the curriculum as we learn.

That pretty much sums it up ... READY? ... GO!

xo

 

[terryl965]

Sure add it, remember to always have someone qualify to show techniques that you may not be aware of. Best of luck in the training.

 

[exile]

If you're a karateka, you don't want to be on the ground. But you may find yourself there, if your technique isn't up to snuff (or the fortunes of combat go against you, always a possibility, no matter how good you are). So training for the ground is necessary... but only in the sense of training for methods for getting off the grounds, onto your feet before the other guy, ready to apply your striking arsenal. A wrestler, judoka or jujitsu practitioner is working with a strategic approach which welcomes the ground, which wants to stay there, and which a huge chunk of the art's technique set is built around. But in the karate-based MAs, those of Okinawa, Japan and Korea, and in most of the CMAs that I've seen in action, the strategic über-principles are built around being vertical and delivering strikes. Controlling moves are part of the story, sure, but only to the extent that they bring the attacker into the range of a terminating strike (or sequence leading to a terminating strike).

My own guess is, it's much more straightforward to develop to work with a single set of strategic principles rather than two radically different or even opposing ones. For karateka (in the most general sense), I think training for the ground means learning enough about how to function there to be able to break whatever techniques the attacker is using to keep you on the ground, if you've had the misfortune to wind up there, and restore the fight to the vertical... with you getting there before he does.

 

[Explorer]

Exile; I agree wholly. The extent of our teaching is how to get back to your feet asap. But perhaps for different reasons. Once on the ground, the bad guys friends (fiends?) tend to add their two cents with their boots. We tend to put the emphasis on mobility ... the ability to move (away from the danger zone primarily).

I have had one sensei who taught striking techniques from the ground ... in order to create an opportunity to escape and stand up.

xo

 

[exile]

Exile; I agree wholly. The extent of our teaching is how to get back to your feet asap. But perhaps for different reasons. Once on the ground, the bad guys friends (fiends?) tend to add their two cents with their boots. We tend to put the emphasis on mobility ... the ability to move (away from the danger zone primarily).

I have had one sensei who taught striking techniques from the ground ... in order to create an opportunity to escape and stand up.

xo

The part in bold is the too-often neglected aspect of any real streetfight: you have to count on the bad guy having friends of the same sort ready to land on you. You can't get away if you're on the ground; you have a fighting chance if you're on your feet. That's just the way it is. Sounds like you are using a very well-thought-out model of what real fights are like in your curriculum!

 

[Explorer]

Hmmm. Just checking everybody's profile I see we're all codgers! Apparently we're waay past needing to be out on a Saturday night! Congratulations, gents! We've made it!



xo

 

[terryl965]

Hmmm. Just checking everybody's profile I see we're all codgers! Apparently we're waay past needing to be out on a Saturday night! Congratulations, gents! We've made it!



xo

Yes we are, well I think it is time for my medicines:erg:

 

[exile]

Hmmm. Just checking everybody's profile I see we're all codgers! Apparently we're waay past needing to be out on a Saturday night! Congratulations, gents! We've made it!



xo

But we can still raise a bit of hell when called upon to do so, I'll bet! :lol:

 

[Explorer]

So, if I put the concepts of 'raising hell' and 'taking my medicines' together we get "Raising My Medicines" which, as we all know, is a reference to "Raising My Glass" (translated directly from ancient Norweigan: Raising My Animal Horn Filled With an Intoxicating Beverage) ... I'll be mixing a medicinal dose of something called a Sidecar.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Explorer I think it is great what you are doing in adding grappling to your karate. Just make sure you learn from a qualified instructor so that you are not missing the small details which make a big differance in the long run.

 

[Noah_Legel]

Well, I don't believe I qualify as a codger, and I don't have medications to take along with everyone else, but I do have some input on ground fighting . Since my karate instructor was a judoka before he was a karateka, we practice both karate and judo, and when we practice judo, we work about 50/50 groundwork and standing. It ends up with being a good striker that knows how to sweep, throw, and takedown an opponent, and know what to do while your down there. I really like the combination, myself, and I have to say that full judo is a hell of a workout, so if nothing else, you'll have more stamina than the other guy

 

[Explorer]

For clarification: I was a judoka before I started my wrestling career (grade school to college) ... and, yes, I am training with a qualified JJ instructor. For perspective, my martial arts training started in 1969 and continues today. I'm a 4th Dan in Shorin Ryu ... have also studied Tae Kwon Do, Aiki Ju Jitsu and Isshin Ryu; I've been exposed to Goju, Ryu Kyu Kempo and most of the other Shorin styles ... so I'm not really a newbie.

Oh and we have a very, very qualified judoka on our board who helps us with throws and some ground technique. It's really cool to see him break down Okinawan kata from a Judo basis!

BUT, what I'm really interested in is ideas on how we, as karateka, should be adding ground fighting concepts OR the best practices of dojos who are already adding throws and ground fighting.

xo

 

[exile]

Explorer, have you ever taken a look at any of Iain Abernethy's stuff on grappling (Karate's Grappling Methods, Throws for Strikers) or his free e-books and his dvds on bunkai for various classical katas, such as the Pinan series? Abernethy is very explicit about his belief that the katas encode SD techs meant to be applied in vertical combat. But in a lot of his work he points out that there is often a straightforward translation of controlling moves designed for the vertical combat domain to horizontal fighting (always, as he emphasizes, with the intention of getting you back on your feet before the bad guy, as per what we were talking about above). Some what he's talking about is probably applicable to the question you're pursuing...

 

[kidswarrior]

Explorer, have you ever taken a look at any of Iain Abernethy's stuff on grappling (Karate's Grappling Methods, Throws for Strikers) or his free e-books and his dvds on bunkai for various classical katas, such as the Pinan series? Abernethy is very explicit about his belief that the katas encode SD techs meant to be applied in vertical combat. But in a lot of his work he points out that there is often a straightforward translation of controlling moves designed for the vertical combat domain to horizontal fighting (always, as he emphasizes, with the intention of getting you back on your feet before the bad guy, as per what we were talking about above). Some what he's talking about is probably applicable to the question you're pursuing...

As you, exile, and several others have said, this seems to me to be the purpose of TMA ground techniques. It might have been intended for stand up fighting, but when it hits the fan ya never know what Lady Luck might dump on you (slippery surface, etc.) that could land one on his or her back (it's happened to me ). So being aware of ways that what we've already trained might be useful in a prone position is very helpful and realistic, imho.

 

[punisher73]

I think the big key is to keep the principals of karate the same. By that if we take an okinawan art like Goju-Ryu what does it want to accomplish while standing? How does it go about accomplishing this? It is an art that deals with close in striking to incapacite. It's locks and throws are designed as a secondary objective to further damage a joint or injure that attacker when slammed to the ground.

I think it is important to recognize your styles key concepts so your groundfighting (different from grappling) is using those concepts to blend and flow. I think alot of people mistake groundfighting and using those methods to get up and away from an attacker with "grappling" (yes, there is a big layover on the moves) in which they decide to stay on the ground and work through the hiearchy of positions to get a submission hold.

I think the most applicable strategy is what is termed in MMA as "sprawl and brawl". Chuck Lidell uses it. He knows enough about the ground and positional escapes to get back up to his feet and continue the fight. He does not attempt to stay on the ground and fight there.

 

[Explorer]

Good points, Punisher! One area where I diverge from JJ technique is 'keyhole locks' ... ONLY because they keep me on the ground, with my hands tied up while my opponent's friends massage my kidneys with their shoes!

I'm looking to get off the ground asap or sooner!

 

[tellner]

I asked that question about twenty five years ago, when I did Uechi Ryu. The teacher was a Godan with a Master teaching certificate from the mother school in Fatenma, Okinawa.

He said "That's not how we fight. If you to be prepared for the ground take some Judo. That's what I did."

It's not our specialty, so go talk the people who are good at it. That was good advice then, and it's good advice now.

 

[fuyugoshi]

He said "That's not how we fight. If you to be prepared for the ground take some Judo. That's what I did."
It's not our specialty, so go talk the people who are good at it. That was good advice then, and it's good advice now.

It's perfect advise. If, in old times, Okinawan martial arts training was complemented with Okinawan sumo, tegumi, shima or any other wrestling art practiced in Okinawa in those days, plus kobudo; in modern times martial arts training include karate (standing), judo (throws and ground) and kobudo (weapons). For instance, Miyazato Eiichi sensei, head of Goju Ryu Jundokan, was a very well known judoka.

In other words, we can relive the debate about whether or not there was ground-fighting in old sparring practice or techniques ingrained in classical kata --and we will probably not reach a consensus; or we can accept that cross-training was an integral part of any martial art, and that most dedicated martial artists probably had some background in tegumi, shima or Okinawan sumo (if not, they probably looked for it) and kobudo. In short, for modern karateka, adding ground-fighting to their arts is a necessity, but that is not new in Okinawan karate. It used to be that way.

This doesn't mean that all karateka practiced tegumi in 19th century, and it doesn't mean that all karateka practiced judo in 20th century. Lots of seniors in most karate organizations have trained in judo (I know, it is an impression based on my limited experience, but there are no statistics about it that I know).

 

[chinto]

there has always been some ground fighting techniques in Okinawan Karate... but most are aimed at getting to your feet fast before his buddies kick your head or ribs in...

remember that Jujitsu men were on Okinawa when Karate was developed... so its not reasonable to think that they did not know or teach some ground work.. a lot of the Japanese systems do not teach them.. and some Okinawan teachers do not teach them as they teach mainly sport.

 

[hpulley]

I'm just a beginner but I tried out some karatedo and judo dojos and took their free one day classes. Originally I'd intended to pick one dojo but then I decided to do the cheap "see how you like it" terms at my favorite karatedo and judo dojos. While my karatedo dojo does do some ground work (they tossed in some break falls earlier this week for some reason), obviously I get a much better throwing and ground work lesson doing randori and rolling (the judo dojo I attend also does BJJ) than in karatedo. But on the other hand, since they only teach striking in kata in judo it seems a bit one sided so doing kicks, strikes, blocks and locks in karatedo seems to be a great compliment. Doing karatedo (with some classical jujutsu) and judo/BJJ seems like a good combo. The karate dojo also does kobudo but I don't know if I have time for weapons too; I'll see. I also need to see if my "masters" age body can take this many lessons a week, ;-)

The funny thing, even as a beginner, is when I'm in a class thinking, "what would I do in this situation in the other class?" For example, the basic karatedo deashi (forward foot movement) methods in the standard forward fighting stance seem quite prone to judo foot sweeps but I'm just a beginner so I'm sure there are more advanced techniques that I'll be taught.