5th Dan Test?

Cruentus

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I'll start by clarifying that I am not a Bujinkan student. This is only because lifes path hasn't taken me to a place to dedicate my training to to the art.

The art does facinate me, though, as far as combat relevency and skills go (had to clarify why it facinates me, because I care little about the ninja fantasy that often accompanies the inquiries about the art).

One thing that is very interesting to me is the 5th Dan test. From what I read, the student closes his eyes and is in a seated posture on the floor. GM Hatsumi approaches from behind, and hits at the student witha wooden bokken. The student has to evade the blow to pass the test. This is what I read; but correct me if I am wrong.

So, I was wondering if anyone can explain to me from a logical perspective as to how this is done. What skills does one practice or learn to be able to pass this test? Even if you aren't a 5th Dan, I am sure you might have some idea?

Anyways, my inquiry is genuine. If, for some reason, I am stepping over boundries by inquiring about this, then please let me know (and reasons why so that I understand) and I will apologize and drop the subject.

Thanks in advance...

Paul
 

rutherford

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As far as I know, there's no boundry here. But I also don't think you'll get a lot of solid information. Most folks will say that only training will prepare you for this test, but that training will indeed prepare you for this test.

I've heard some folks say that nothing prepares you for this test and that Hatsumi moves the person out of the way of his strike and that only Hatsumi can decide if you will pass this test.

To further complicate the issue, sometimes Hatsumi isn't the one wielding the weapon.

Some interesting, possibly related, reading:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22382
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31315
 
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Cruentus

Cruentus

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Thanks, I'll read up when I have time.

I've heard some folks say that nothing prepares you for this test and that Hatsumi moves the person out of the way of his strike and that only Hatsumi can decide if you will pass this test.

This would certianly make sense, but like I said, I'll read up. Anyone disagree with the quoted possability?
 

Bigshadow

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The couple of 5th Dan I personally know who have passed the test have two different stories. I believe the experience is not consistent across the board. I have not taken it, so I do not speak with any authority other than my conversations with the two Shidoshi I know and train with. One talks about letting go and truly believing "today is a good day to get hit". The other one pretty much said, he closed his eyes and he don't know what happened, he just heard the bokken crashing to the mat, BTW, it was not Soke for the second guy, I spoke about, but Nagato. The first guy I spoke about can also be seen on TLC's top 10 martial arts, BBT was #4 and they show him taking his godan test, given by Hatsumi.

This is how I understood what they experienced (in my words). I have also read that Hatsumi gave the test to some non-ma people and someone passed it.
 

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Tulisan said:
I'll start by clarifying that I am not a Bujinkan student. This is only because lifes path hasn't taken me to a place to dedicate my training to to the art.

Don't worry, nobody's perfect.:)

Tulisan said:
One thing that is very interesting to me is the 5th Dan test. From what I read, the student closes his eyes and is in a seated posture on the floor. GM Hatsumi approaches from behind, and hits at the student witha wooden bokken.

Most of the time a shinai is used, but there have been instances in which bokken as well as bo staffs have been used...

Tulisan said:
So, I was wondering if anyone can explain to me from a logical perspective as to how this is done.

Nope.
My best guess so far is that it is due to taijutsu training having enabled one to re-discover an ability which already exists inherently in humans as well as animals.

Tulisan said:
What skills does one practice or learn to be able to pass this test?

Taijutsu.

Now, take this for what it's worth, as I've long since accepted that I probably won't get the opportunity to even attempt the test personally.


PS. When Soke allows a shihan to perform the test under his supervision, don't look at the two persons actually doing the test. Keep your attention on Soke. "It's cool".
 

Don Roley

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Tulisan said:
So, I was wondering if anyone can explain to me from a logical perspective as to how this is done. What skills does one practice or learn to be able to pass this test? Even if you aren't a 5th Dan, I am sure you might have some idea?

I think it should be pointed out that it seems as if those that try to prepare most for the test do the worst. There is no exercises or such that I have heard Hatsumi reccomend. The closest I think is his advice to take long walks. I think he mentioned that in relation to the test.
 

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Also, one minor point (or maybe not so minor if you get it): there is no 'eyes closed' requirement. Most people close their eyes in order to concentrate better.

I had my eyes open on my test, although I didn't realize it at the time.

*Proper* training will prepare you for the test.
 

Kreth

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Tenchijin2 said:
I had my eyes open on my test, although I didn't realize it at the time.
Same here, although the first thing I remember seeing was people clapping after it was over...
 

Tenchijin2

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The funny thing was that it was originally some obsession of mine to pass the test with my eyes open, because I'd read something that Noguchi had said about keeping your eyes open in order to use all your senses.

So when I passed, I mentioned to my instructor (Bill Atkins) that I was a bit disappointed that I wasn't able to keep my eyes open. He looked at me quizzically and said "Dude... your eyes were *wide* open and totally dilated. It was pretty cool."(I'm paraphrasing).

It took probably an hour or two before I could recall the event totally, but I can definitely remember the whole thing, including what I was seeing and the feelings and thoughts I had during the test, and how it felt to move out of the way.
 
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Cruentus

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Thanks for the discussion so far, guys. This is incredably interesting to me. :)

So, if you could, explain in your own words what you felt triggered the response to effectively move? I realize of course that this explaination will be limited, due to reason that it would seem that your utilizing parts of the brain and body not exactly existing in the consious mind.
 
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Cruentus

Cruentus

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Also, does anyone ever "jump the gun," or move well before they should out of anticipation and adrinaline rather then the triggered response of the strike?
 

Don Roley

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Tulisan said:
Also, does anyone ever "jump the gun," or move well before they should out of anticipation and adrinaline rather then the triggered response of the strike?

Frequently. That is a failure as well. But usually you are allowed to sit back down and try again.
 
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Cruentus

Cruentus

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Don Roley said:
Frequently. That is a failure as well. But usually you are allowed to sit back down and try again.

I figured as much, but I didn't want to assume. How many tries you get is decided by Hatsumi also, I assume?
 

Tenchijin2

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Tulisan said:
So, if you could, explain in your own words what you felt triggered the response to effectively move?.

I don't think we can honestly say what *triggers* the movement, but I can tell you that as I sat there the top of my head got very HOT. Then I just knew it was time to move without having to 'think' about it.

The experience is very different for everyone, though. It's not important what it feels like to someone else, what's important is what it feels like to YOU. And it might feel different every time. Part of the lesson (IMO) is to not expect something in particular but to accept what is actually happening right then.
 

Kreth

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Tulisan said:
So, if you could, explain in your own words what you felt triggered the response to effectively move?
In my case, I had a strong feeling that I needed to move, NOW! Then I realized that I already had, and people started to clap (the test is done in front of a class at Honbu).
 

liuseongsystem

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My Teacher can do that at will.

we try to punch him.

havent touched him yet.

I can do it as well, but i am hit and miss, and 'get jumpy' still.
 
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Cruentus

Cruentus

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That's neat. The mind/body state sounds almost zenlike.... from a non-practitioners perspective, I would compare it too the same kind of mind body state I let myself be in when I am leasurely walking with my dog out in the country? (I'll end that with a questionmark because for all I know I could be way off base...) Although, it seems that part of the "test" is can one be in that state to sense and move before being hit with the stress of KNOWING that someone is going to klonk you in the head if you fail - a lot more at stake then walking a dog I am sure. :)
 

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just makes me glad Hatsumi uses padded bokken and shinai and not the real deal.

Could you imagine how reluctent people would be to take the test if he used the real thing?
 

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ManOfVirtues said:
just makes me glad Hatsumi uses padded bokken and shinai and not the real deal.

Could you imagine how reluctent people would be to take the test if he used the real thing?
It's bad enough with the shinai. I've never seen anyone knocked out, but I've seen a few people who definitely had their bell rung.
I won't tell the story in detail since I heard it second-hand, but once Hatsumi sensei absolutely drilled a student who sat for the test after 2 years of training, then said "NO!"
 

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