Dan Testing Reflection

[dvcochran]

Last weekend was my 7th Dan MDK promotion. We are got back last night from my 5th Dan Kukkiwon testing. Overall I am very pleased with events of the day. A little disappointed with the amount of sparring I did but it really had little to do with my own physical sparring abilities. I spent a good deal of time being evaluated on how well I can coach others in WT style sparring. I went through the Yudanja poomse (Koryo to Cheonkwon) which went well. Then there was about an hour of drills and self defense skills testing. With the Kukkiwon requirements met, I then deviated a bit from the required curriculum. Back in the day, we were required to walk through a from and explain each move, then do the form at speed. My GM told the other testers this and proceeded to have me do the three Naihanchi's, Sip Soo, Jindo, Kong Sang Koon, Ro Hai, & Jion this way. I stopped between each poomsae and my GM would talk about specific elements of each form and how they contrast with the Yudanja poomsae elements.
There was a long Q&A period and I talked a lot about how it was "just another day" and only a very small part of my overall testing, which occurs every day and every class. How martial arts learning is a process that takes time to digest and turn into something of value and benefit to the student. I also talked about how an instructor has to find a personal relationship with students and find what is unique about them. To learn the triggers of people and how to use them to motivate and teach them.
It was a great day full of memories. Whether I test again is of no consequence to me right now. I am just looking forward to the next class.
I hope to hear about others BB testing experiences. What did you do? What was the format and environment? etc...

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

Congratulations!
With the vast growth and decline of students in our school we've had a large variety of promotion types.

For my first dan (i was the only one going for a dan) everyone tested that day and my name wasnt called and my teacher ended the promotion, he knew my heart sank, dismissed everyone for food, then halted everyone telling them he had one more announcement - that i was getting my first dan

For my fourth dan he just surprised me at Christmas time with the diploma saying that i was more than ready and no need to test. You can say he likes surprising me, he was always like a father to me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I got my BB in the NGAA (Nihon Goshin Aikido Association), it was a long and laborious process. The parts (I'll probably forget some):

• Vocabulary test - took many weeks. Included words we never used, so the first pass through (400+ words) was mostly taking notes. Then going back through in multiple sessions until I gave the right definition for every term.
• Strikes testing - including all the kicks (10, if I'm counting correctly), arm strikes (6?), and blocks (7). Some we didn't use much. This was usually multiple sessions over time.
• Formal techniques testing - 50, tested on both sides, in a single session. No rechecks (if you don't pass, you try again at least 2 weeks later). Many adjustments were given to see if the new BB could make the adjustments on the fly.
• Applications to the 50 techniques. This is basically demonstrating the technique from a non-static position (not with resistance, but at speed).
• 3 short papers to write on the principles of the art.
• A year of student teaching (shodan is also teaching certification).
• Self-defense test, with 120 attacks. Low-resistance, full speed.

The whole testing cycle happens over about 6 months for most folks, not excluding the student teaching (which is part training, part testing). We didn't do (and I still don't) dedicated testing sessions, except where that's the only way to manage it (like the SD test). Everything else was done during regular class time, while someone else manages the class.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For my fourth dan he just surprised me at Christmas time with the diploma saying that i was more than ready and no need to test. You can say he likes surprising me, he was always like a father to me.

I get the surprises started early. Most of my students have received their yellow belt (first earned rank) during class via strangling in a demonstration of improvised weapons.

 

[dvcochran]

• Vocabulary test - took many weeks. Included words we never used, so the first pass through (400+ words) was mostly taking notes. Then going back through in multiple sessions until I gave the right definition for every term.
• Strikes testing - including all the kicks (10, if I'm counting correctly), arm strikes (6?), and blocks (7). Some we didn't use much. This was usually multiple sessions over time.
• Formal techniques testing - 50, tested on both sides, in a single session. No rechecks (if you don't pass, you try again at least 2 weeks later). Many adjustments were given to see if the new BB could make the adjustments on the fly.
• Applications to the 50 techniques. This is basically demonstrating the technique from a non-static position (not with resistance, but at speed).
• 3 short papers to write on the principles of the art.
• A year of student teaching (shodan is also teaching certification).
• Self-defense test, with 120 attacks. Low-resistance, full speed.

I like this format. Ours is quite similar. I had to write two papers, one thesis length. It ended up just over 7500 words. More pertinent in the MDK elements, vocabulary is tested and confirmed through repeated classes. At the lower Dan's we are required to verify vocabulary knowledge through written exam.
I think our sparring and self defense sections would be similar to your strikes testing, application of the 50 techniques, and self defense test. Individually, there are 35 one steps drills and 20 multi-step drills. Then however many application drills necessary for you to use each step drill, (probably around 100). The high amount of forms we do (relative to most styles) would fall under this category as well. We very much teach them with intent and greatly detail the purpose of moves within each form.
In our vein of TKD, teaching starts at 1st Dan formally and more often starts at red belt. So this requirement would be similar in length, maybe shorter in some cases.
Thanks for the input.

 

[Orion Nebula]

Congrats!

I hope this thread gets a lot of attention. While I'm just a white belt, black belt testing is something that has both worried me and intrigued me. I'd like to know more about what it's like across different arts.

At my former school I attended as a teen, any black belt tests were held before the regular tests and were done in secrecy. I can only recall two students earning their first dan while I was there, but both came out of their tests injured. One was a younger girl, probably 13, and she hurt herself breaking boards for the first time during the exam. The other was an 18ish guy, and he had some trouble walking because they had beat his legs with canes during the exam. I also recall hearing a little bit about the exam for my instructors when they achieved master status and saw a few photos. They had to do a bo kata with what I can best describe as a giant log.

It's nice to see that other people have not had this kind of experience!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I like this format. Ours is quite similar. I had to write two papers, one thesis length. It ended up just over 7500 words. More pertinent in the MDK elements, vocabulary is tested and confirmed through repeated classes. At the lower Dan's we are required to verify vocabulary knowledge through written exam.
I think our sparring and self defense sections would be similar to your strikes testing, application of the 50 techniques, and self defense test. Individually, there are 35 one steps drills and 20 multi-step drills. Then however many application drills necessary for you to use each step drill, (probably around 100). The high amount of forms we do (relative to most styles) would fall under this category as well. We very much teach them with intent and greatly detail the purpose of moves within each form.
In our vein of TKD, teaching starts at 1st Dan formally and more often starts at red belt. So this requirement would be similar in length, maybe shorter in some cases.
Thanks for the input.

I quite liked it, too. Some of it has nothing to do with SD, nor really with MA training (there were vocabulary words that we'd never run into, unless maybe we traveled to Japan in the 1940's). Those pieces are (IMO) about creating something for folks to accept, struggle with, and get past...something that's not physical (because nearly everything else in the test is physical).

I've made some adjustments, added in rounds of sparring, adjusted the method of the SD test to take away the focus on always winning (which leads partners to be a bit too soft), and actually moved some of the content to earlier tests. I don't have anyone near BB in my curriculum yet (don't actually know if I ever will - it would take a long time, and I only have a few students at a time), so some things could change before I get to use my own tests.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Congrats!

I hope this thread gets a lot of attention. While I'm just a white belt, black belt testing is something that has both worried me and intrigued me. I'd like to know more about what it's like across different arts.

At my former school I attended as a teen, any black belt tests were held before the regular tests and were done in secrecy. I can only recall two students earning their first dan while I was there, but both came out of their tests injured. One was a younger girl, probably 13, and she hurt herself breaking boards for the first time during the exam. The other was an 18ish guy, and he had some trouble walking because they had beat his legs with canes during the exam. I also recall hearing a little bit about the exam for my instructors when they achieved master status and saw a few photos. They had to do a bo kata with what I can best describe as a giant log.

It's nice to see that other people have not had this kind of experience!

We sometimes had injuries in the SD tests, but it was more likely to be the partners (I dislocated a thumb in a 2-man attack on a friend's test). But they were rare. I can think of only a handful in all the tests I participated in. Pulled muscles and other usual stuff were more common.

 

[dvcochran]

Congrats!

I hope this thread gets a lot of attention. While I'm just a white belt, black belt testing is something that has both worried me and intrigued me. I'd like to know more about what it's like across different arts.

At my former school I attended as a teen, any black belt tests were held before the regular tests and were done in secrecy. I can only recall two students earning their first dan while I was there, but both came out of their tests injured. One was a younger girl, probably 13, and she hurt herself breaking boards for the first time during the exam. The other was an 18ish guy, and he had some trouble walking because they had beat his legs with canes during the exam. I also recall hearing a little bit about the exam for my instructors when they achieved master status and saw a few photos. They had to do a bo kata with what I can best describe as a giant log.

It's nice to see that other people have not had this kind of experience!

Curious how long ago your experience was. Only in extreme exceptions do I think this is the norm. It is hard enough without all the mystic crap. I fully commit to idea that learning a MA or fighting system should be physical, very physical. The martial arts I have been exposed to grow and strengthen a person mentally if they are looking for that. If they are going in just looking for fighting skills I get it. I never fully crossed over to bare knuckle fighting (outside the bar )even though I did quite a lot of Olympic level competing. I am not sure I ever had that same mentality.
As in @gpseymour 's system attaining BB takes considerably longer than some other systems. I imagine if you lined up a person from each system with the same amount of experience in regards to time, they would be similar, albiet one would likely have specific skills that the other does not have, kicking vs. submissions vs. takedowns for example.
I am certain as you continue down your path getting to BB will not seem to be as monumental a task.
FWIW, I did break a quarter size piece of bone from my right ankle doing a break. Another story. It happens.

 

[Orion Nebula]

We sometimes had injuries in the SD tests, but it was more likely to be the partners (I dislocated a thumb in a 2-man attack on a friend's test). But they were rare. I can think of only a handful in all the tests I participated in. Pulled muscles and other usual stuff were more common.

I can definitely understand injuries accidentally occurring, but I feel like if you wanted someone to break a board during a BB test, you probably should have shown them how to properly break a board beforehand, not have them figure it out while they are ultra stressed during a test. It's asking for trouble.

Curious how long ago your experience was. Only in extreme exceptions do I think this is the norm. It is hard enough without all the mystic crap. I fully commit to idea that learning a MA or fighting system should be physical, very physical. The martial arts I have been exposed to grow and strengthen a person mentally if they are looking for that. If they are going in just looking for fighting skills I get it. I never fully crossed over to bare knuckle fighting (outside the bar )even though I did quite a lot of Olympic level competing. I am not sure I ever had that same mentality.
As in @gpseymour 's system attaining BB takes considerably longer than some other systems. I imagine if you lined up a person from each system with the same amount of experience in regards to time, they would be similar, albiet one would likely have specific skills that the other does not have, kicking vs. submissions vs. takedowns for example.
I am certain as you continue down your path getting to BB will not seem to be as monumental a task.
FWIW, I did break a quarter size piece of bone from my right ankle doing a break. Another story. It happens.

This was 15 - 17 years ago. I have no idea if it's still like this as I've moved away, plus the two owners split ways a few years ago and each have their own school now (with one of them retaining the original name). I would say the school definitely had an approach of making you tough, both physically and mentally, although we did use gloves and other gear when sparring. They didn't actually want you to break yourself Our lower belt tests were grueling. I could never make it through one in my current physical state. I remember on one test, we started out with 50 pushups, then upon starting our punches, the head instructor didn't think our collective kiai was loud enough so we had to do 100 more before continuing (and of course we did more pushups later on because they loved pushups there). The various instructors would walk around stepping on people during pushups and knocking their arms out from under them, jumping on the backs of legs to make sure stances were strong, sweeping legs to test weight distribution - things like that. Lower belts didn't get as much poking and prodding, but the higher ranks sure did. You were definitely beat by the time you got to the actual test part (performing kata, sparring, demonstrating throws, etc.), which of course was the point. And that's part of the reason why I always found BB tests worrisome - if people were stepping on me and trying to knock me over when I was getting a purple belt, what would they do to me if I was getting my black belt?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can definitely understand injuries accidentally occurring, but I feel like if you wanted someone to break a board during a BB test, you probably should have shown them how to properly break a board beforehand, not have them figure it out while they are ultra stressed during a test. It's asking for trouble.

I agree. I wouldn't test anything I've not taught, and it's my understanding there's a bit of proper technique to breaking (I've never done any breaking...on purpose, anyway).

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Last weekend was my 7th Dan MDK promotion. We are got back last night from my 5th Dan Kukkiwon testing. Overall I am very pleased with events of the day. A little disappointed with the amount of sparring I did but it really had little to do with my own physical sparring abilities. I spent a good deal of time being evaluated on how well I can coach others in WT style sparring. I went through the Yudanja poomse (Koryo to Cheonkwon) which went well. Then there was about an hour of drills and self defense skills testing. With the Kukkiwon requirements met, I then deviated a bit from the required curriculum. Back in the day, we were required to walk through a from and explain each move, then do the form at speed. My GM told the other testers this and proceeded to have me do the three Naihanchi's, Sip Soo, Jindo, Kong Sang Koon, Ro Hai, & Jion this way. I stopped between each poomsae and my GM would talk about specific elements of each form and how they contrast with the Yudanja poomsae elements.
There was a long Q&A period and I talked a lot about how it was "just another day" and only a very small part of my overall testing, which occurs every day and every class. How martial arts learning is a process that takes time to digest and turn into something of value and benefit to the student. I also talked about how an instructor has to find a personal relationship with students and find what is unique about them. To learn the triggers of people and how to use them to motivate and teach them.
It was a great day full of memories. Whether I test again is of no consequence to me right now. I am just looking forward to the next class.
I hope to hear about others BB testing experiences. What did you do? What was the format and environment? etc...

First, congratulations. Second, my testing consisted of my Sensei watching me over time. When I was promoted to Shodan, he had me do some kata, answer some questions, fight a little bit as I recall. Nidan was a line up with a za-rei, congratulations, all the black belts say something nice. Sandan, he walked up to me at the dojo Christmas party and handed me a certificate and said congratulations, you're Sensei Bill now. I think we hugged, the manly kind. I may have teared up slightly.

We're not that big on ceremony. We do the whole schtick for the kids promotions. Adults it's whatever, here's your belt, I was sick of looking at the old one. We're a small dojo, everyone knows who's ready and who isn't.

 

[JR 137]

First, congratulations. Second, my testing consisted of my Sensei watching me over time. When I was promoted to Shodan, he had me do some kata, answer some questions, fight a little bit as I recall. Nidan was a line up with a za-rei, congratulations, all the black belts say something nice. Sandan, he walked up to me at the dojo Christmas party and handed me a certificate and said congratulations, you're Sensei Bill now. I think we hugged, the manly kind. I may have teared up slightly.

We're not that big on ceremony. We do the whole schtick for the kids promotions. Adults it's whatever, here's your belt, I was sick of looking at the old one. We're a small dojo, everyone knows who's ready and who isn't.

I respect that. A big part of me wonders why there’s a test. My teacher wouldn’t test me for kyu ranks if he didn’t think I was ready. He sends people to his teacher for dan testing, and he wouldn’t send me if I wasn’t ready when that time comes.*

I love testing though. Not for the belt, as I’ve been there done that before. I’m not chasing rank, I’m just chasing improvement. I just love the test itself. I love being pushed out of my comfort zone and being pushed close to my breaking point. Funny thing is, the more I’m pushed like that the more I learn my breaking point is further away than I thought it was.

*Many people have failed dan tests, so it’s not simply a formality and/or a demonstration of sorts. However none of my teacher’s students have failed dan a test. I guess he does a great job of preparing his students.

 

[JR 137]

Last weekend was my 7th Dan MDK promotion. We are got back last night from my 5th Dan Kukkiwon testing. Overall I am very pleased with events of the day. A little disappointed with the amount of sparring I did but it really had little to do with my own physical sparring abilities. I spent a good deal of time being evaluated on how well I can coach others in WT style sparring. I went through the Yudanja poomse (Koryo to Cheonkwon) which went well. Then there was about an hour of drills and self defense skills testing. With the Kukkiwon requirements met, I then deviated a bit from the required curriculum. Back in the day, we were required to walk through a from and explain each move, then do the form at speed. My GM told the other testers this and proceeded to have me do the three Naihanchi's, Sip Soo, Jindo, Kong Sang Koon, Ro Hai, & Jion this way. I stopped between each poomsae and my GM would talk about specific elements of each form and how they contrast with the Yudanja poomsae elements.
There was a long Q&A period and I talked a lot about how it was "just another day" and only a very small part of my overall testing, which occurs every day and every class. How martial arts learning is a process that takes time to digest and turn into something of value and benefit to the student. I also talked about how an instructor has to find a personal relationship with students and find what is unique about them. To learn the triggers of people and how to use them to motivate and teach them.
It was a great day full of memories. Whether I test again is of no consequence to me right now. I am just looking forward to the next class.
I hope to hear about others BB testing experiences. What did you do? What was the format and environment? etc...

Congratulations on your promotion. I love reading posts like this.

 

[dvcochran]

First, congratulations. Second, my testing consisted of my Sensei watching me over time. When I was promoted to Shodan, he had me do some kata, answer some questions, fight a little bit as I recall. Nidan was a line up with a za-rei, congratulations, all the black belts say something nice. Sandan, he walked up to me at the dojo Christmas party and handed me a certificate and said congratulations, you're Sensei Bill now. I think we hugged, the manly kind. I may have teared up slightly.

We're not that big on ceremony. We do the whole schtick for the kids promotions. Adults it's whatever, here's your belt, I was sick of looking at the old one. We're a small dojo, everyone knows who's ready and who isn't.

I haven't tested since 1995 so, as with anyone, it is about the journey not the destination. We are tested throughout the time between belts so I don't know how different it can be. It does sound like our testing are a bit more formal and I suppose there is more highlight on the higher belt testing's. I am the longest active student so he made a deal out of that. Never thought about it much, was just happy I made it home and got it over with. There was a bit of a mind game going on in my head since it has been so long.

 

[_Simon_]

Last weekend was my 7th Dan MDK promotion. We are got back last night from my 5th Dan Kukkiwon testing. Overall I am very pleased with events of the day. A little disappointed with the amount of sparring I did but it really had little to do with my own physical sparring abilities. I spent a good deal of time being evaluated on how well I can coach others in WT style sparring. I went through the Yudanja poomse (Koryo to Cheonkwon) which went well. Then there was about an hour of drills and self defense skills testing. With the Kukkiwon requirements met, I then deviated a bit from the required curriculum. Back in the day, we were required to walk through a from and explain each move, then do the form at speed. My GM told the other testers this and proceeded to have me do the three Naihanchi's, Sip Soo, Jindo, Kong Sang Koon, Ro Hai, & Jion this way. I stopped between each poomsae and my GM would talk about specific elements of each form and how they contrast with the Yudanja poomsae elements.
There was a long Q&A period and I talked a lot about how it was "just another day" and only a very small part of my overall testing, which occurs every day and every class. How martial arts learning is a process that takes time to digest and turn into something of value and benefit to the student. I also talked about how an instructor has to find a personal relationship with students and find what is unique about them. To learn the triggers of people and how to use them to motivate and teach them.
It was a great day full of memories. Whether I test again is of no consequence to me right now. I am just looking forward to the next class.
I hope to hear about others BB testing experiences. What did you do? What was the format and environment? etc...

Congratulations mate, that's huge, well done

 

[_Simon_]

I love testing though. Not for the belt, as I’ve been there done that before. I’m not chasing rank, I’m just chasing improvement. I just love the test itself. I love being pushed out of my comfort zone and being pushed close to my breaking point. Funny thing is, the more I’m pushed like that the more I learn my breaking point is further away than I thought it was.

Love this. And isn't it always huh!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I respect that. A big part of me wonders why there’s a test. My teacher wouldn’t test me for kyu ranks if he didn’t think I was ready. He sends people to his teacher for dan testing, and he wouldn’t send me if I wasn’t ready when that time comes.*

I love testing though. Not for the belt, as I’ve been there done that before. I’m not chasing rank, I’m just chasing improvement. I just love the test itself. I love being pushed out of my comfort zone and being pushed close to my breaking point. Funny thing is, the more I’m pushed like that the more I learn my breaking point is further away than I thought it was.

*Many people have failed dan tests, so it’s not simply a formality and/or a demonstration of sorts. However none of my teacher’s students have failed dan a test. I guess he does a great job of preparing his students.

I think in most cases the number of folks failing upper-level tests is from a couple of things. First, as you imply, some places use tests merely as a formality, a bit of ritual. In the best of those situations, the "testing" has actually been done already - either discretely, or just as a matter of observation. The other side is what you're talking about. The test is an actual pass-fail test, but the instructor doesn't test people until they are fairly certain the student will pass. There's still the possibility of failure, but it becomes a remote possibility.

 

[JR 137]

I think in most cases the number of folks failing upper-level tests is from a couple of things. First, as you imply, some places use tests merely as a formality, a bit of ritual. In the best of those situations, the "testing" has actually been done already - either discretely, or just as a matter of observation. The other side is what you're talking about. The test is an actual pass-fail test, but the instructor doesn't test people until they are fairly certain the student will pass. There's still the possibility of failure, but it becomes a remote possibility.

I haven’t tested for yudansha ranks in my current organization so I can’t say first hand, but I’ve heard it several times from several credible people.

Dan testing is done over the course of several evenings. Each evening has different aspects - kihon, kata, standardized stuff, and sparring. People aren’t publicly told they’ve failed; they’re told privately after whichever evening that they need more work on whatever it was and to try again another time. Everyone’s said they started out with however many people the first night and there were a couple people who weren’t there for the next session for each session.