5th Dan Test?

[MJS]

It's bad enough with the shinai. I've never seen anyone knocked out, but I've seen a few people who definitely had their bell rung.
I won't tell the story in detail since I heard it second-hand, but once Hatsumi sensei absolutely drilled a student who sat for the test after 2 years of training, then said "NO!"

Out of curiosity, what is the standard time line for ranking in the Bujinkan? It seems like this is a test in which some time is required to build up the sensitivity or 'feeling' that you'll get when Hatsumi begins the downward cut. 2 yrs. seems like not much time in training to be ready for a test like this.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Out of curiosity, what is the standard time line for ranking in the Bujinkan? It seems like this is a test in which some time is required to build up the sensitivity or 'feeling' that you'll get when Hatsumi begins the downward cut. 2 yrs. seems like not much time in training to be ready for a test like this.

Mike

I think that would all depend on the training method, though. When your talking in terms of years rather then weeks or months, how effective your training is holds more weight then time spent. That's just been my experience, though.

 

[Kreth]

Out of curiosity, what is the standard time line for ranking in the Bujinkan? It seems like this is a test in which some time is required to build up the sensitivity or 'feeling' that you'll get when Hatsumi begins the downward cut. 2 yrs. seems like not much time in training to be ready for a test like this.

Mike

There really isn't a standard. I sat for the test after about 9 years in the Bujinkan. I've also seen the Japanese shihan tell a student to sit for the test.
A funny story about my test: A friend and I both ended up sitting for the test within a week of each other. He had successfully passed his test the week before I got to Japan. My first class on arriving in Japan was with Hatsumi sensei, at the Honbu dojo. There is typically a break in the middle of class for tea, at which time sensei usually does calligraphy for those attending. In the middle of break, knowing that I'll be testing at the end of class, my friend walks up and casually asks, "So... nervous yet?" :uhyeah:

 

[MJS]

There really isn't a standard. I sat for the test after about 9 years in the Bujinkan. I've also seen the Japanese shihan tell a student to sit for the test.

Thanks for the reply!

A funny story about my test: A friend and I both ended up sitting for the test within a week of each other. He had successfully passed his test the week before I got to Japan. My first class on arriving in Japan was with Hatsumi sensei, at the Honbu dojo. There is typically a break in the middle of class for tea, at which time sensei usually does calligraphy for those attending. In the middle of break, knowing that I'll be testing at the end of class, my friend walks up and casually asks, "So... nervous yet?" :uhyeah:

Ahh...nothing like saying something that would help you relax right!

 

[ManOfVirtues]

man what we do without the support of our friends around us.

 

[Cruentus]

"So... nervous yet?" :uhyeah:

lol.

Besides differences in training methods, it sounds like whether someone is ready or not probably has a lot to due with their personal makup as well.

 

[liuseongsystem]

'Besides differences in training methods, it sounds like whether someone is ready or not probably has a lot to due with their personal makup as well.'

actually just about anyone can do, it is just a matter of relaxing and focusing correctly.

there are differing degrees of skill with it of course.

me i can dodge a punch and mostly get a good read from where it is coming from.

my Teacher can move as soon as you think about and is out of range before you can even step. it is almost like as soon as you start to think about and generate the intention, he picks up on it and moves.

it you cant relax it wont work however.

and beyond that, someone mentioned being able to do this while walking the door, in a natural setting. now that is what is considered high skill....'defending unseen from the four sides and the four corners'.

thanx.

 

[Kreth]

actually just about anyone can do, it is just a matter of relaxing and focusing correctly.

Since this is a thread on the Bujinkan test, could you let us know about your experience in the Bujinkan?

 

[Cruentus]

'Besides differences in training methods, it sounds like whether someone is ready or not probably has a lot to due with their personal makup as well.'

actually just about anyone can do, it is just a matter of relaxing and focusing correctly.

there are differing degrees of skill with it of course.

me i can dodge a punch and mostly get a good read from where it is coming from.

my Teacher can move as soon as you think about and is out of range before you can even step. it is almost like as soon as you start to think about and generate the intention, he picks up on it and moves.

it you cant relax it wont work however.

and beyond that, someone mentioned being able to do this while walking the door, in a natural setting. now that is what is considered high skill....'defending unseen from the four sides and the four corners'.

thanx.

Interesting. We are all capable of certain things, but certianly this isn't a thread or forum area where "me tooing" is appropriate. I was interested in what Bujinkan does in relation to a particular skill in the spirit of learning. I am not interested in looking at claimed comparitive skills.

So, if you have experience with Bujinkan, I would certianly like to hear about that.

Thank you.

 

[liuseongsystem]

ah sorry didnt know this was Bunjinkan exclusive thread. often i dont read titles very well and generally search and pursue topics of interest.

my apologies.

and no, i do not have any Bujinkan exerience.

and btw, lets stay from referring to my activities as 'me tooing'.

since we are being polite.

peace.

 

[Tenchijin2]

Once cautionary note on this whole subject:

if you haven't experienced 'it', this type of conversation *can* be perilous to your development. It's very easy to think that you understand what is being discussed becuase it's *similar* to something you already know or do. But, very often it isn't the same thing and you can easily mislead yourself into thinking you grasp something that you do not.

there are many levels to this type of skill, and Hatsumi sensei discusses this topic in several books (most recently "Ninpo Wisdom for Life" IIRC). The godan test isn't necessarily about avoiding an attack from behind, although it seems absurd to say that. Some say it isn't even about YOU at all!

As far as time and skill... let's just say that it would seem inconceivable to me that all 1000+ godan are highly skilled. I've trained with hundreds of them personally, so let's just say that I firmly believe that ambition and politics are alive and well even at this level of testing. I've seen people with NO training pass the test in demos. Does this mean they are godan? Or is there more to being a godan than passing the sakki test?

Just some things to think about. BTW, I'm not suggesting that anyone in this thread has been irresponsible with the information. Quite the contrary I think this is one of the best threads on the topic I've ever read!

 

[Don Roley]

Once cautionary note on this whole subject:

if you haven't experienced 'it', this type of conversation *can* be perilous to your development. It's very easy to think that you understand what is being discussed becuase it's *similar* to something you already know or do. But, very often it isn't the same thing and you can easily mislead yourself into thinking you grasp something that you do not.

Which is kind of why liuseongsystem got the reaction he did. If Kreth had not already answered, I would have. Other arts do things that are of great value. But we need to be very clear that we stick to how things are done in this art to avoid confusion with things that are similar in many ways, but have very, very important differences.

 

[swiftpete]

How come a live blade is not used any more then anyway?

 

[Cruentus]

How come a live blade is not used any more then anyway?

Huh?

 

[ManOfVirtues]

How come a live blade is not used any more then anyway?

For two reasons I assume, laws of man. And if you start killing off your students it would be pretty hard to get any new members.

 

[Cruentus]

For two reasons I assume, laws of man. And if you start killing off your students it would be pretty hard to get any new members.

Dudes, what are we talking about?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Paul, the test used to be given with a live blade!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Cruentus]

Paul, the test used to be given with a live blade!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

By Hatsumi or before him?

 

[KyleShort]

Live blade by Hatsumi Paul, if I recall correctly.

It's interesting...I have been training in Bujinkan and Eskrima for some time now and I am starting to *feel* the two arts joining inside me in ways...in any case...I have taken many long breaks from the Bujinkan, thus I am not even Shodan yet...however I can certainly attest to the awareness that BBT develops. I believe that it is this awareness that the Godan test is all about. A few years back I was on business in Sydney, Aus. and I had not been actively training in BBT for about two years. I was walking down the street and all of a sudden my body took over, I dropped into a deep Hoko no Kamae which quickly transitioned into a back roll on the street. My coworkers were cracking up at me and I said something to the affect, "Dunno what the hell came over me..." That only made them laugh harder as they pointed behind me...I turned to see a small parrot zooming away in the air. According to their account, the parrot shot out from a fence and was about 1/2 an inch from clipping my head when I dropped...cognitively I did not see the bird.

Now I don't know if that is similar, but it was a real world testament to the awareness that the training builds. To tie it back to eskrima for both our sakes Paul...the awareness is similar in ways to when you are flowing in Sinawali or Hubud and all of a sudden your training partner throws something at you out of left field and you respond correctly before you even *see* it comming. A different training methodology, and very different mindset, but similar effect. In BBT, you want to loose your mind and be almost extra corporeal (I know that sounds dumb)...in eskrima you are white hot focused on razing your opponent to the ground...at least that's my personal perspective.

Insight from a perpetual newb.

 

[swiftpete]

My instructor had the test done with a live blade. I don't think hatsumi actually killed the people if they failed it though, the strike was done with intention, but if the person didn't move then the cut was pulled. I must stress that I'm not claiming to be an expert on the matter, I'm just going from what I've heard.
My instructor said that he wasn't actually told the test was going to happen, he was just told to meditate and then after a while just felt a hot feeling down the side of his head and rolled to find hatsumi was standing behind him.

Although I'm not 5th dan or even 1st yet, we do a lot of energy training in my class and I actually was tested for it last week. But I'm not at the stage where I think I'd pass every time, mine was done in a similar way to my instructors, we were all meditating at start of class and i just felt an itchy sort of feeling on the side of my neck. Felt it a couple of times, moved my head out of the way each time and didn't really think about it, but at the end of the class my teacher told me he had walked up behind me with a sword and did the cut a couple of times. Quite a cool feeling to be told that, but to be honest I could give no guarantees I could do it again. Maybe one day I'll be developed enough to feel every attack when blind to it, but definitely not there yet.