2 on 1 Sparring

[Disco]

Oh I don't know about all that. Seems to me that sparring more than one person is much more than an exercise in futility. For one thing, it'll teach you very quickly that mobility is king. There was a video a while back of one man taking on three or four. Furiously backpedaling and landing good solid jabs on one nose after another. He moved backward, but laterally as well. Very effective. And very trainable. (Yeah, not a word. Sue me.)

Even if it goes badly, it's a good lesson in keeping your head about you under duress. And that's an invaluable lesson in and of itself.

Now, if someone does multiple sparring hoping to look good, now that is futile.


Stuart

That video you mentioned is a perfect example of the futility stated. Granted, he back peddled and was punching, but they kept coming at him. Since he didn't look as though he was a trained individual, what he did was instinctive and he did a pretty good job at fending them off, but not putting them down and escaping. As for keeping one's head under duress, that's highly dependent on the individual. Regardless of training, some folks have that ability and some don't. One will never really know until they encounter a real honest to goodness threat. As for teaching that mobility is king is an understatement, this aspect also is instinctive.

Having 2 or more attackers in the confines of the dojo/dojang, along with the mindset that this is nothing but an exercise and your not in any real danger fosters it's a "game" attitude. You can't escape because it's a confined area and you can't put your attackers down, so in reality you've accomplished nothing but getting tired and hit a lot.

 

[ap Oweyn]

That video you mentioned is a perfect example of the futility stated. Granted, he back peddled and was punching, but they kept coming at him. Since he didn't look as though he was a trained individual, what he did was instinctive and he did a pretty good job at fending them off, but not putting them down and escaping.

Disagreed. He looked trained to me. It's a lot harder to hit a target whilst keeping good footwork backward and tracking multiple targets at the same time. And the fact that he did so even as long as he did in that video proves its validity to me. Maybe things didn't pan out for that particular guy (though I don't remember them not panning out). But in another instance, that same skill set could have bought him enough time to escape. And fending off four people for any length of time is a skill both clearly valuable and bloody difficult.

As for keeping one's head under duress, that's highly dependent on the individual. Regardless of training, some folks have that ability and some don't. One will never really know until they encounter a real honest to goodness threat.

Training can bring out a quality in someone. I suppose it's true that their trained level of preparedness still won't rival someone else's instinctual level of preparedness. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth it to the less instinctual of the two. Unless we suggest that the poor soul faced with two attackers should simply stand there bemoaning the fact that genetics shortchanged them.

As for teaching that mobility is king is an understatement, this aspect also is instinctive.

For some. Less so for others.

Besides, I think in some ways, it's an instinct that sparring trains out of us. People often learn to stand toe-to-toe with an opponent. And sometimes that's not the issue. Sometimes it's simply that the change in parameters leaves people flat footed. Literally. They go into vapour lock because of all the new factors to consider.

I've seen plenty of 2 on 1 sparring in taekwondo, for instance, in which someone used to relying on their kicks against a single opponent has to learn quite quickly not to take either of their feet out from under themselves unless they're good and ready to land something compelling. Otherwise, both feet should be fully committed to getting them into a better position. A fixed target is an easier target.

And how can "mobility is king" be an understatement anyway?! Whaddya want me to say? "Mobility is major diety"?!

Having 2 or more attackers in the confines of the dojo/dojang, along with the mindset that this is nothing but an exercise and your not in any real danger fosters it's a "game" attitude. You can't escape because it's a confined area and you can't put your attackers down, so in reality you've accomplished nothing but getting tired and hit a lot.

So, because the simulation has limits, you're better off not bothering? I don't buy that. The "game" attitude isn't a foregone conclusion. It's simply a factor to be addressed.


Stuart

 

[DarkShadowfax]

but they kept coming at him. Since he didn't look as though he was a trained individual, what he did was instinctive and he did a pretty good job at fending them off, but not putting them down and escaping. As for keeping one's head under duress, that's highly dependent on the individual. Regardless of training, some folks have that ability and some don't. One will never really know until they encounter a real honest to goodness threat. As for teaching that mobility is king is an understatement, this aspect also is instinctive.

Having 2 or more attackers in the confines of the dojo/dojang, along with the mindset that this is nothing but an exercise and your not in any real danger fosters it's a "game" attitude. You can't escape because it's a confined area and you can't put your attackers down, so in reality you've accomplished nothing but getting tired and hit a lot.

To be honest, at Krav Maga classes we have to train the beginners to move in an I-formation as most of them think of beating their attackers up or think of making a dash for it without even leveling one opponent. They focus on a single attacker and at times, turn their back to the other attacker. True, some people instinctively move in I-formation, but the untrained tend to follow the tunnel-vision-fight -or- flight scheme. Even the advanced belts forget to move in an I-formation at times.

I'd say that sparring with multiple opponents is actually quite useful, because I think it teaches you to move around in the correct way so you can keep track of (most of?) your attackers. If you know how to block hits and quickly counterattack, you can finish X attacker off and push your groggy victim into his friend and make a dash for it. It is difficult, but possible. Furthermore, it simulates a street situation, where people aren't going to wait for you to finish one of their buddies before they jump in to fight you. Yes, you will get hit a lot, and yes, it will hurt, but the hurt you'll have to deal with in a real situation without appropriate training will be much worse.

As for the confinement-problem, ask your partners to act a little while you 'put down your victims' and make a dash for the exits while they act like they're down. Easy enough, right?

To add something to what ATC said,
Never move between your opponents. You'll feel like a car wreck put in a car wash street, the ones with the massive brushes.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Did the blindfold thing,. I stood in front of 3 shmucks. One middle one either side of me. I'd close my eyes while they'd pick one to punch at me. Then I opened my eyes. Then one punched. Of course I didnt know who would do that. Of course someone usually gives themselves away if you're looking.

I am getting better at anticipating moves by others my own experience level or lower. The upper belts still move without telegraphing, at least not so I can tell. And I know I'm telelgraphing, based on the ease with which my attacks are blocked and brushed away.

It doesn't help that I'm slow anyway. About the only time I'm fast enough is when someone launches something at me unexpectedly. When they do that, for whatever reason, I often manage to block it instinctively. The followup I nearly always miss. I know the problem is me thinking about it too much, but I don't know how to NOT think about it too much!

 

[tempus]

We do the same type of drills in NGA. Multiple attackers and we also doa variation where one attacker is holding you and the other person is either trying to hit you or coming at you with a knife.

Same concepts:
1) Go for the weaker attacker
2) Line them up and use one as a shield.
3) Make a break so you can run for it
or
4) If you have to fight off a second or third guy, make sure the first and following attackers do not get back up if you cannot run for it.

Its fun to do to see how you react under pressure. No blindfold training, but we do turn out the lights every once in while and that changes everything.

-Gary

 

[Miles]

We do 2 on 1 and 3 of 1 sparring at black belt level.

I think it is valuable to teach mobility and situational/environmental awareness. Not just to ensure you are not the monkey in the middle, but using trees (spectators?), corners, etc to prevent (or accomplish) a retreat.

 

[Blade96]

I am getting better at anticipating moves by others my own experience level or lower. The upper belts still move without telegraphing, at least not so I can tell. And I know I'm telelgraphing, based on the ease with which my attacks are blocked and brushed away.

It doesn't help that I'm slow anyway. About the only time I'm fast enough is when someone launches something at me unexpectedly. When they do that, for whatever reason, I often manage to block it instinctively. The followup I nearly always miss. I know the problem is me thinking about it too much, but I don't know how to NOT think about it too much!

i was with 2 blackbelts and one brown belt. The black and brown belts gave themselves away one time. The other black belt didnt.

Once though. The other times they never and i still caught all the punches.

I'm getting better.

 

[dancingalone]

I believe this drill is useful aside from the points everyone has made already. It's a good way to mentally and physically pressure someone, whatever you think of the actual street application. Sometimes training is about making sure a person doesn't quit. Multiple sparring tests their spirit if the rounds go on long enough and if you allow a sufficient amount of contact (pain).

 

[sgtmac_46]

We did a few rounds of 2 on 1 sparring (moderate contact continuous) last night. I'm still trying to decide if I liked it or not. Any of you do this regularly? Do you have any tips, and what do you consider to be the benefits of this exercise?

If you're doing it right it's not likely that you're ever going to 'like' it. What's to like about fighting two folks at the same time? It is, unfortunately, sometimes a reality.

 

[sgtmac_46]

This type of sparring/training is an exercise in futility. It serves no real purpose except to show you what will happen if you can't/don't put attackers down. Learning how to line folks up is about the only real applicable application derived from this, but again, if you can't/don't put people down, you'll have a constant supply of attackers you really can't deal with. Now as far as being blindfolded and in a circle having folks attack you, well somebody has been watching to many old kung fu movies.

I very much disagree.......i've found it to be quite useful, done realistically. I agree with the putting folks down, part, but you can't always knock everyone out right off the bat, some times just surviving the initial fouled up mess long enough to angulate and attack is important.

 

[sgtmac_46]

That video you mentioned is a perfect example of the futility stated. Granted, he back peddled and was punching, but they kept coming at him. Since he didn't look as though he was a trained individual, what he did was instinctive and he did a pretty good job at fending them off, but not putting them down and escaping. As for keeping one's head under duress, that's highly dependent on the individual. Regardless of training, some folks have that ability and some don't. One will never really know until they encounter a real honest to goodness threat. As for teaching that mobility is king is an understatement, this aspect also is instinctive.

Having 2 or more attackers in the confines of the dojo/dojang, along with the mindset that this is nothing but an exercise and your not in any real danger fosters it's a "game" attitude. You can't escape because it's a confined area and you can't put your attackers down, so in reality you've accomplished nothing but getting tired and hit a lot.

You're making more of it than it really is. I've had occasion to get a street fight with, in one occassion, two, and another, three, assailants in two separate incidents, and the reality is that, yeah, if they were all skilled ninja, i'd be dead........but they weren't. Keeping your head, keep attacking, and keep moving and angling goes a long way..........and so does taking a hostage and choking him while putting him in between you and them.

The fact is that this type of training, far from being pointless, does instill the ability to deal with these types of situations. One cannot simply rely on 'instinct' without training.

 

[Deaf Smith]

The fact is that this type of training, far from being pointless, does instill the ability to deal with these types of situations. One cannot simply rely on 'instinct' without training.

I agree.


In almost any fight the attackers are not some team that has practiced precise multiple simultaneous attacks on their victim. They to have their fears and some will hold back more than others during confusion.

They will more likely be hesitant and uncoordinated, with interfering with each other’s moves. If you keep mobile and aggressive in YOUR attacks you can keep them off balance. The trick is to be mobile enough and spot openings for fakes, feints, and rushing.

To stand still and just block or be cornered, as sgtmac, are bad things to do. Oh, and don’t go directly between two attackers while they are fully mobile. You will get hit from both sides that way.

If you can, stack them by moving to one side and getting two of them in align so that only the front person can attack you for that moment. Then rush him.

Another trick is to fake a rushing attack at one and instantly swich the attack to the other guy.

You can also grab one of them and use him for a shield or push him into one of the others.

Always try to use any environmental weapon handy. Chairs, stools, lamps, rocks, limbs, car antinna, bottles... anything for a weapon.


And the best way.... have a gun.


Deaf

 

[KenpoVzla]

Just saw a new video of a new sparring modality for tournaments called 4-corner sparring
It's in the beginning stages, but it's more or less along the lines of 2v1.

[yt]1HunCYtOhSk[/yt]

 

[Stac3y]

The 4 corners sparring is interesting, but there wasn't a whole lot of 2 on 1 going on there. Once in a while there was, but mostly it was just choosing one partner. And since they stopped every time a point was seen, it was a lot different from what I was doing, which was essentially 2 minutes of having 2 fighters work together to try to beat the hell out of the 3rd one.

BTW, we do tag team at my school tournaments--it's a lot of fun. Tag team is strictly one on one, though, with each fighter able to tap one of his or her team who is waiting on the sidelines at any point. Strategy there is to tap your strongest fighter when the other team's strongest fighter comes in. Breaks are called for points; it's not continuous.

Thanks for posting this; it's interesting to see new events.

 

[Disco]

Originally Posted by sgtmac_46
The fact is that this type of training, far from being pointless, does instill the ability to deal with these types of situations. One cannot simply rely on 'instinct' without training.

Sorry, but your wrong!.............Go back to the very first time you were pitted against multiple attackers during training, it's doubtful that you were afforded any prior training aspects before being attacked, I know I wasn't. So whatever you did during this initial encounter was all instinctive. Now just how many times during the course of training does is this element focused on? I'd venture to say that the vast majority of schools only offer it up every once in a while and it's not a primary addition to the curriculum. Your initial introduction to multiple attackers does open your eyes to what needs to be accomplished, on that I do agree, but without being able to stop an attacker, it's an exercise in futility, for they just keep coming and coming and your constantly being pounded. You can dodge and angle and shield till your blue in the face, but the attacks still keep coming until the instructor says "stop". The only thing learned from this is to attempt to minimize the hits until it's over and in my estimation, that's a pretty bad mindset to take to the street.

This all boils down to personal preference. You find some merit in this entanglement and I do not, regardless of what or what's not attributed to useful training.

Now as to the guy in that video being a trained fighter........Again, somebodies opinion, but looking at what he did, I didn't see any training aspects being shown. If he was a true "Trained fighter", don't you think he would have done more than just throw punches at the attackers? Again, at the fault of repeating myself.........They kept coming at him.......Kind of looked like that valuable? training drill we're talking about, doesn't it!!

 

[tshadowchaser]

2 on 1 sparring, sure i did it almost every time I studied under my instructor after I made yellow belt. 3, 4, 5, or more on one we did at times also.
2 on 1 builds speed and confidence after a while. 3 or more it becames a street fight and good techniques may disapear for survival. Both are good training if looked at as a learning experence
Yes, my students still do both at times

 

[sgtmac_46]

Originally Posted by sgtmac_46
The fact is that this type of training, far from being pointless, does instill the ability to deal with these types of situations. One cannot simply rely on 'instinct' without training.

Sorry, but your wrong!.............Go back to the very first time you were pitted against multiple attackers during training, it's doubtful that you were afforded any prior training aspects before being attacked, I know I wasn't. So whatever you did during this initial encounter was all instinctive. Now just how many times during the course of training does is this element focused on? I'd venture to say that the vast majority of schools only offer it up every once in a while and it's not a primary addition to the curriculum. Your initial introduction to multiple attackers does open your eyes to what needs to be accomplished, on that I do agree, but without being able to stop an attacker, it's an exercise in futility, for they just keep coming and coming and your constantly being pounded. You can dodge and angle and shield till your blue in the face, but the attacks still keep coming until the instructor says "stop". The only thing learned from this is to attempt to minimize the hits until it's over and in my estimation, that's a pretty bad mindset to take to the street.

This all boils down to personal preference. You find some merit in this entanglement and I do not, regardless of what or what's not attributed to useful training.

Now as to the guy in that video being a trained fighter........Again, somebodies opinion, but looking at what he did, I didn't see any training aspects being shown. If he was a true "Trained fighter", don't you think he would have done more than just throw punches at the attackers? Again, at the fault of repeating myself.........They kept coming at him.......Kind of looked like that valuable? training drill we're talking about, doesn't it!!

Uhmmmmm........yeah, the first time, it's instinctive......the point of training is to instill responses that are deemed correct. If everything was correct instinctively there'd be no point in training. Forgive me for saying, but it appears as though you are talking in circles.

 

[Disco]

"Forgive me for saying, but it appears as though you are talking in circles."

Circles?...........Not really, I've been straight to the point and it's always been the same rhetoric.........It's an exercise in futility if you can't stop the attacker(s). Folks can debate or extol the virtues that they feel this training offers, but your own responses have validated my position. ."yeah, the first time, it's instinctive".........If it's instinctive, which it is, then any further attempts to condition/train that response is unwarranted, it's already there.

"the point of training is to instill responses that are deemed correct"

True, but those training responses are those that the individual does not already have, that's the reason for seeking out the training.

"3 or more it becames a street fight and good techniques may disapear for survival"........tshadowchaser

I concur, but this statement also validates the position. Training aspects, no matter how well ingrained, will disappear in a full out survival mode. So all that anticipated so called quality training against multiple attackers goes right out the window, because it's not real functional training. At best it's a good workout, but again and I can't seem to repeat this enough, if you can't stop the attack, then your in a loop of wasted energy, which will run out faster than your attackers

"2 on 1 builds speed and confidence after a while"

You either have speed or you don't. There's not much room to develop this aspect if your under a constant siege by multiple attackers. There are better ways to "attempt" to increase one's speed potential than this. As for confidence, I can't see it. All your conditioning under this training is attempting to minimize the amount of hits your taking and again, you will most likely run out of steam well before both attacker do. In my estimation, one instills confidence by projecting positive outcomes during an endeavor, not just hoping to survive a beat down. This goes directly back to stopping the attacker(s), not playing tag with them.

 

[ap Oweyn]

The guy keeps his composure, mobility, and feet for a good long while. We don't see how this ends. But if someone can keep themselves upright against four or five aggressors for 10 seconds, that's 10 very valuable seconds in which to find a way out or for help to arrive.

As for not having any training, you're mistaken (assuming this is the video you were describing). He's landing good solid jabs, well timed straight into the opponents' attacks, as he's backpedaling and thwarting a tackle attempt. That ain't pure instinct.


Stuart

 

[Disco]

As for not having any training, you're mistaken (assuming this is the video you were describing). He's landing good solid jabs, well timed straight into the opponents' attacks, as he's backpedaling and thwarting a tackle attempt. That ain't pure instinct.

Your opinion he's trained.............If swinging wildly at the onset and pushing an attacker down that jumped at him is your indication of "trained". then more power to you. There was only one instance, when he threw a left jab, that had any remote indication of possible training, but if you look closely at that jab it was not that good. Did this guy do a credible job at fending off the attackers?........some will say yes he did well. In my opinion he was not trained and did not eliminate any of his attackers, they bounced up after falling or being pushed to the ground or a punch off balanced them. Don't you honestly think that a "trained" person would/should have inflicted a lot more on these untrained attackers, then what was shown?

What this guy did was instinctive. He put his hands up in a boxing position, even little kids do that. He moved away from his attackers and attempted to keep them from ganging up, as they tried when it first started. He learned quickly on that point, but if he was trained as you feel, don't you think he would have done that from the get go?

We saw a 10 to 15 second clip of an attack by multiple people who just kept coming. There's no telling what the final outcome was, but from what was shown I'll speculate that if it continued on the same pace, the attackers would have most likely succeeded in defeating his attempts to fight them off. You can't keep playing tag with folks that are out to hurt you, they must be stopped if possible and that's where training is applicable. This guy was not trained and it's evident by the fact that he was not stopping his attackers.

We witnessed a real life physical struggle with multiple attackers. If you feel that the training you undertake regarding multiples is adequate and you endorse it, no problem, it's your training and your attitude/mindset that dictates what you like, so more power to you. But if you honestly think that what you viewed is viable and fits within the framework and scope of your training, then I sincerely hope that you don't find yourself in a similar situation.