10th degree black belts

[still learning]

Hello, Does your martial arts class teach you verbal skills and prevention from being arrested? ..one of few things we teach is...

Real basic stuffs here.....What to say and how to stand if someone is ready to attack you or is angry at you...HOW to say the few things that will protect you from the LAW and how to look innocent...yet ready to attack/defend yourself. Knowing how to put your hands in a way to be ready and innocent at the same time. ( Palms can be facing in or out )

So when the police come....the eye wittness will be on your side! and the laws of the land.

Verbal skills is just as important as the learning to punch.....NO one wants to end up in Jail or be sue....!

Learning is endless....Aloha

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I have met 2 people ever that I would consider true 10th Dan's based on skill and knowledge and how they got their rank. Both were Okinawan living and teaching on Okinawa. In the USA, Europe and many other places in the world there are more in the non asian countries than there are on Okinawa or Japan put together and you can probably include Korea in the count also.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Thereby eliminating Ed Parker and many others who founded their own style! Until there is an accepted "Council of Grandmasters" to hand out such ranks (which, as I understand it, effectively happened with Tatsuo Shimabuku and Isshin-ryu), there's a problem here. Who's the font of honour in the martial arts?

Just curious, why mention Parker and not Helio Gracie or Remy Presas? They founded their own styles, as well.

 

[arnisador]

Just curious, why mention Parker and not Helio Gracie or Remy Presas?

I thought I could make the point without a lengthy list.

 

[MJS]

I'd say that there're quite a few 10th degrees out there. Now, how legit they are, well...thats another story. People tend to think that the 10th is some mystical thing that will make people ohh and ahhh and worship the ground they walk on. Some do just that, but for me, its not the rank that impresses me nearly as much as the skill the person has.

I've seen people with high rank and I felt that they really didn't deserve it. I've also seen lower ranked people and thought that they'd be worthy of a rank higher than what they were wearing at the time.

Personally, I think that people should spend more time spreading the art that they teach, continue to make themselves better, continue to make their students better, give back to the art and be a positive influence, instead of worrying what belt rank they wear.

Just my .02

Mike

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

how many would you say there are in the U.S.?

No specific number. Too many, though I think. Very few arts have a history of tenth degree ranks before the eighties or nineties. Bujinkan and Ed Parker Kenpo are the only two that I know of that have had a tenth degree for any length of time, though in Buginkan's case, Hatsumi added the tenth degree later and I am not certain of when.

But most modern styles did not have anything above fifth to eighth until dan-measuring contests began. I still remember when tenth dan was posthumous in most of the orgs that had it. Taekwondo had to create material for dan ranks above first and if I recall, did not go above fourth or fifth until the sixties or seventies, and then only to eighth or ninth. Then you have guys who claim a tenth dan and a menkyo/kaiden in the same art at the same time. Some of these claim tenth dan in multiple arts.

Now, it seems that every org wants to have dan ranks higher than the next guy. I think these guys watched Spinal Tap one to many times.

Interestingly, the All Japan Kendo Federation recently bucked this trend and announced that there would be no more ninth dan kendoka. Current ninth dan will remain ninth dan, but the hachidan is the highest attainable dan rank at this point.

Daniel

 

[howard]

Looks like there have been 15 in judo.

From the judoinfo website, which as far as I know is legitimate:

Kodokan 10th Dans in order of their promotion date:

• Yamashita, Yoshitugu (1865-1935) Promoted 10th Dan 1935
• Isogai, Hajime (1871-1947) Promoted 10th Dan 1937
• Nagaoka, Hidekazu (1876-1952) Promoted 10th Dan 1937
• Mifune, Kyuzo (1883-1965) Promoted 10th Dan 1945
• Iizuka, Kunisaburo (1875-1958) Promoted 10th Dan 1946
• Samura, Kaichiro (1880-1964) Promoted 10th Dan 1948
• Tabata, Shotaro (1884-1950) Promoted 10th Dan 1948
• Okano, Kotaro (1885-1967) Promoted 10th Dan 1967
• Shoriki, Matsutaro (1885-1969) Promoted 10th Dan 1969
• Nakano, Shozo (1888-1977) Promoted 10th Dan 1977
• Kurihara, Tamio (1896-1979) Promoted 10th Dan 1979
• Kotani, Sumiyuki (1903-1991) Promoted 10th Dan 1984
• Daigo, Toshiro (1926- ), Promoted 10th Dan 2006
• Abe, Ichiro, Promoted 10th Dan 2006
• Osawa, Yoshimi, Promoted 10th Dan 2006

I see that there are a handful of people in hapkido who claim 10th dan rank. Not sure who gave them those ranks, but it would have been neither Choi Yong Sul nor Ji Han Jae. Choi awarded four 9th dans during his life.

There is also at least one reference to Choi Yong Sul having been a 10th dan, but that is incorrect. He was known as the doju (founder of the system or inheritor of the system in a chain that leads directly back to the founder). Choi himself never had any dan rank. Assuming that the story of his training in Daito-ryu is true, the only things he ever would have received would have been a teaching certificate (kyoju dairi) or a license of complete transmission (menkyo kaiden), because Daito-ryu did not use the dan system when Choi would have been a student.

In general, I'd be wary of 10th dans in any art except judo.

 

[arnisador]

Aren't there also posthumous 12th dans in Judo?

 

[still learning]

Aren't there also posthumous 12th dans in Judo?

Hello, Have you heard of some martial arts with 15th degrees....Universal Kempo Karate Schools....Professor Martin T. Buell had set up in his system...with up to 15th Degrees....yet to promote himself to 11th degrees....may retired soon.

Aloha,

 

[Bruno@MT]

In western JJ, there are only dan grade exams up to 3d dan, or occasionally 4th dan, but that would be more of a token exam (words of my old sensei).

Starting from 4th, you get your dan grades for your involvement in the art (you have be an active teacher, organize a seminar every now and again, ...) and then you get your dan grades like clockwork:
wait 4 years for 4th
wait 5 years for 5th
wait 6 years for 6th
etc
This system is agreed upon by all sensei of which the club is a member of the national JJ federation (which are most of the western ones)

I knew a 7th dan sensei when I was still practising western JJ, I just did the math, did a google search, and found that he was now a 9th dan, just as expected. In another 7-8 years he should make 10.

I don't mean to sound negative about this though. I feel it would be better if advanced grades came with advanced requirements like in Genbukan, but at least in the system as I just described this, you know at least that a person with that grade has been doing his art for a very long time.

 

[seasoned]

To claim mastery in anything, let alone 10th degree in MA, is kind of scary. If you are one, who would you want to tell it to. You would need body guards with you at all times to watch your back. People would be watching your every move, looking for that one mistake, and when it came, to look away quickly, for fear of embarrassment. No one can call themselves one, that is reserved for others to grant that to you. But, in that case who gave them the power to do so. The grading system is misguided and misused, and in many cases detrimental to the arts. Are there a lot of 10th, probably more then we need. The few that are granted that, are the ones, that you may not even know if you ran into them out side of the dojo atmosphere. Do we need them, absolutely, they are the true ambassadors of the arts, the ones that have gone before, to show the way.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello, Have you heard of some martial arts with 15th degrees....Universal Kempo Karate Schools....Professor Martin T. Buell had set up in his system...with up to 15th Degrees....yet to promote himself to 11th degrees....may retired soon.

Aloha,

Bujinkan has fifteen degrees, though I believe that eleven through five are considered higher degrees of tenth.

Daniel

 

[arnisador]

Bujinkan has fifteen degrees, though I believe that eleven through five are considered higher degrees of tenth.

I think that's right.

 

[chinto]

lol! if any person is not the head of the style its self and claims 10th dan, well lets just say im very skeptical!

 

[amcgroup]

Too many.

At one time in my style the highest rank was Shodan, as the system became more commercialized and broke off into various groups ranking above Shodan was created.

Every group added material (real or not ) for higher ranking and every group suddenly had a 10th degree master.

10th degree status is now watered down just like the original mystique of a black belt. When I trained and taught in the 1970's there were few black belts around, now there everywhere therefore today it means little.

Everyone is a master, professor or my favorite Soke and there all in some made up MA Hall of Fame.

My original instructor is a legitimate 8th degree who has been "training and studying" for over thirty years yet people who began after me have gone off declared themselves Masters and "created" their own system.

There are no controls and there will never be because no one can agree on a real standard. I was taught years ago that the only way to determine who is better is to fight, no rules or tap outs just fight to the end.

All the Master Soke Professors under fifty should get together in a room and fight. The winner is the Master and we can all train with him.

If their all so confident in their abilities that they decided there Masters then this shouldn't be a problem.

Then we can go back to the point of MA training; bettering oneself, self defense, physical and mental fitness or whatever legitimate reasons the arts were developed for.

 

[Guardian]

Well it's safe to say that a accurate number will be unattainable at this point other then hundreds for sure, possibly thousands.

Maybe they ought to hold a dinner for them (Blackbelt Magazine) that is and let's see how many show up. One of the pre-conditions is that you have to submit the proper papers showing your rank. Well it might not cover everyone, but it sure would give us a close number.

 

[stone_dragone]

lol! if any person is not the head of the style its self and claims 10th dan, well lets just say im very skeptical!

Within the IKCA kenpo system's association bylaws, there is provision for non-founders to attain the rank of Judan. Recently Mr. Doug Meeks of Napa, CA was honored by SGM Sullivan and GM LeRoux.

The organization maintains the title of Senior Grand Master for the head of the system, currently SGM Sullivan. The bylaws and requirements for promotion within the yudansha ranks was put in place long before anyone in the association attained the rank of 10th dan.

All who have had the privilege of training with GM Meeks will testify that his skill, knowledge and humility are consistent with such an honor.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Do a google search on some of these internet based associations and see just how many 10th Dan's there are and how many names overlap its amazing.

 

[Tensei85]

Wow! That's amazing to have so many numbers, I think someone forgot to tell them were Martial Artist were not payed to count that high! Just kidding,

I can't really say anything on how many numbers someone puts on there belt, however I can say that even if your 100th degree it doesn't mean your high quality. In fact I've met 4th & 5th degree black belts that were trash, but then I've met color belts that had all the makings of a skilled proponent.

So it comes down to were only as good as how hard we train.

But that's pretty cool 15 degrees.

 

[Tensei85]

And yet how many living people have a rank that high that didn't have a role in their own promotion? My old instructor had a "10th level" (not "dan" since it was a CMA) and definitely was (and is) a self promoter in so many ways. Yet from the point of view of knowledge and skill, it was hard to argue about it. He was simply (and obnoxiously) the best in his system.

Personally, I despise the whole ranking thing. Coming back after a long retirement, I have given up my own ranking until, maybe someday, I really deserve it.

I agree with that,
To be honest its all nice and superficial to receive your nice new black belt with your name on it or without just as nice. But its meaningless, I believe it was all just a promotion thing in the first place.

Personally I've never met a 10th degree black belt, in the TKD that I studied we had an 8th degree who was one of the higher ups in the World TKD Federation. Named Chang Soo Lim. But that's about as high as I've met.

And in Judo I met a 7th degree, Jujitsu a 8th dan.

Kung Fu a 9th degree lol!

The important thing is there are amazing people in all different systems regardless of what rank they possess. There are lower ranks that are awesome! Then so called "Master" ranks that couldn't use what they know to defend themselves from a 5 year old.

But I'll admit its a great feeling to get your 1st black belt, but after that trust me it gets old.

But 10th degree, I feel its all self promotion to make one self sound higher up than others even if it is accepted or established by an Association.

As Geezer said, I agree and will say I'm happy to be a no rank now. (I gave up all my rankings, black belts etc...) I felt that there was too much significance being placed on belt rankings and not enough on personal skill.

Just my .02