10th degree black belts

[TaekwondoForLife]

Depends on who you talk to. If you believe the United States Martial Arts Association and the various "Sokeship Councils" quite a few.

If you actually research legitimate organizations and styles, exclude self promoted instructors, exclude those promoted by friends, exclude those given the rank by rinky-dink local organizations, and exclude those given 10th Dan by organizations they founded, the number becomes quite smaller.

 

[Balrog]

I only know of one, and he received the rank posthumously: H. U. Lee, founder of the American Taekwondo Association.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I remember asking a karate sensei about how many degrees there were a very long time ago and he said that he only recognized eight, knew of some 9th in other arts, and said that tenth was only available posthumously.

He was speaking in general terms, not absolutes, but it kind of makes me wonder if we have an undead-in-the-martial-arts dynamic going on here.

Daniel

 

[Kenpo1981]

I try to learn from whoever is teaching. Fakes expose themselves and I move on. I have had the opportunity to learn from 3 different men who wear/wore a 10th degree ranking. None of them are/were braggarts, all three are/were humble and never discussed their rank, all three are/were way more capable than I. Each of these men have/had many years of dedicated service in their given system behind them that is/was easily verifiable. One of them has passed on, the other two are heads of their own organization and moving their systems forward with honor.

In my current system, rank above about 5th degree is honorary, based on what you are contributing to the system specifically and mankind in general. It's about your teaching and passing along the system in an honorable manner.

I have many years of experience in several differing systems. I would say rank is specific to each individual system and doesn't really cross over well due to such a wide variety of time required to advance, amount of material covered for each rank, etc. It varies from school to school lots of times as well.

I say earn the rank with honor, pass the knowledge on with honor.

 

[Haze]

True story,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I was at a tournament and this 7yr old was running around in the bleachers. He was a yellow belt. A prominent Hanshi from my area of the woods called the young man over and asked him to stop running. The kid says "I'm just having some fun" Hanshi says "Do you know who I am? I'm so and so, I'm a tenth degree black belt!" The kid looked at him and said "My name is so and so and I'm a yellow belt" and ran off.

I don't think the 7yr old was impressed at all with rank. He was just at the tournament to have some fun.

 

[Kenpo1981]

True story,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I was at a tournament and this 7yr old was running around in the bleachers. He was a yellow belt. A prominent Hanshi from my area of the woods called the young man over and asked him to stop running. The kid says "I'm just having some fun" Hanshi says "Do you know who I am? I'm so and so, I'm a tenth degree black belt!" The kid looked at him and said "My name is so and so and I'm a yellow belt" and ran off.

I don't think the 7yr old was impressed at all with rank. He was just at the tournament to have some fun.

That is too funny!!!! Leave it to a kid to feed us adults a tasty slice of humble pie!!! Hahahahaha

 

[Brandon Fisher]

True story,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I was at a tournament and this 7yr old was running around in the bleachers. He was a yellow belt. A prominent Hanshi from my area of the woods called the young man over and asked him to stop running. The kid says "I'm just having some fun" Hanshi says "Do you know who I am? I'm so and so, I'm a tenth degree black belt!" The kid looked at him and said "My name is so and so and I'm a yellow belt" and ran off.

I don't think the 7yr old was impressed at all with rank. He was just at the tournament to have some fun.

Thats great!!! Respect is earned but when demanded it tends to bite ya where the good lord split ya.

 

[JourneymanDave]

I thought 10th dan was reserved for founders, or does it vary in different arts?
I know Judo has em, what else does too?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Almost every modern system has them, although primarily those that have roots in Korea or Japan.

Whether they are awarded often or not varies on the art itself.
For example, the highest grade in Kendo is 8th dan. 9th or 10 still exist in theory, but they are (almost) never awarded. However, once you are in that area of grades, there are also 3 master titles that can be awarded. So in practise: a Hanshi 6th dan can outrank a renshi 7th dan.

In Judo, 10th Dan is awarded, but it is extremely rare.
In Genbukan, I suppose it is possible, though noone is quite there yet. Genbukan only exists for 30 years. 10th is something that is achieved over a lifetime of dedication.
In bujinkan, 10th dan is not uncommon, but that is because dan grades have a different meaning (and their scale runs up to 15 instead of 10).

Also, some systems enforce mandatory intervals between an increase in grade. In kendo this is as many years as the dan grade you want to achieve. After 3d dan, you have to wait 4 years to get 4th (or perhaps it was as many years as the one you have?)
So this means that by the time you are eligible for the 8th dan exam in kendo, you have been doing kendo for half a lifetime, even if you pass all exams first time (which you won't).

So you see it's very hard to make meaningful comparisons between dan grades of different system.

 

[Kajowaraku]

Additionally, in genbukan you also have the mastery levels (renshi, kyoshi, jun shihan,...) which mean more than bare dan ranking. On top of that there's also the kaiden system. One person might be a 6th degree kyoshi, but another might be 5th dan renshi with Shoden Menkyo in koto ryu and shindenfudoryu (to just give an example). That basically makes that person higher ranked in those ryuha, but for internal organisation he will still have to sit in seiza after the 6th degree kyoshi.

On top of that no flashy belts are used to denote these things. One is expected to "know thine Renshi / Kyoshi / ..." They are all listed on the organisational website to make sure nobody can pretend to be something they're not.

 

[TheArtofDave]

I'm not talking about the few 10th degree ranks there may be. I also know a lot of them are the con artist paper mill type looking for a quick buck, and also the subsequent "learner" is just looking for a quick way to claim rank without putting in the actually work. That is just lazy.

Where did the honesty, and credibility go with these people who want to "fake" what their actual work is. Don't they know more reward comes with work, dedication, and your personal journey from your white belt to your black black. From your first degree to your ninth, or however your system works.

Where did the credibility go? Tradition should not always be thrown out the window in order to advance quicker. Think of all the opportunity you miss out on.

I'd rather put in the work, and value the journey. Than to have my credibility shot down by some mcdojo, or paper mill.

That makes me admire the legitimate ones even more.

 

[thesandman]

I've found that most people who are quick to discount rank or belittle the achievements and skills of high ranking black belts are those who are either afraid they'll never reach that level or don't want to admit that some people out rank them.

That being said, yes some people are out there with ranks they don't really deserve for a variety of reasons. It's hard to know at a glance which ones are which. Though you can generally tell pretty quickly once you see them teach.

Lets also make sure we don't fall in the trap of not distinguishing the difference between taking pride and being egotistical. I take great pride in my MA accomplishments. My rank and some of my awards are part of my resume. They say something important about who I am that potential employers might think is relevant. That does not mean I go around bragging about it or treating others poorly.

My grand-master instructor has his rank, title and some of his accomplishments on his website. This is advertising and informational, not ego.

So a few things to keep in mind during these discussions:

Recognition that superior knowledge/experience/skill exists beyond us. There's always someone better.

Recognition that ambition/pride does not equal dishonor/egotism.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Too many. Enough that when I meet one the first thought in my head is no longer "Wow, this must be someone worthy of great respect."

What he said.

I've found that most people who are quick to discount rank or belittle the achievements and skills of high ranking black belts are those who are either afraid they'll never reach that level or don't want to admit that some people out rank them.

That being said, yes some people are out there with ranks they don't really deserve for a variety of reasons. It's hard to know at a glance which ones are which. Though you can generally tell pretty quickly once you see them teach.

Lets also make sure we don't fall in the trap of not distinguishing the difference between taking pride and being egotistical. I take great pride in my MA accomplishments. My rank and some of my awards are part of my resume. They say something important about who I am that potential employers might think is relevant. That does not mean I go around bragging about it or treating others poorly.

My grand-master instructor has his rank, title and some of his accomplishments on his website. This is advertising and informational, not ego.

So a few things to keep in mind during these discussions:

Recognition that superior knowledge/experience/skill exists beyond us. There's always someone better.

Recognition that ambition/pride does not equal dishonor/egotism.

They're a dime a dozen any more. That's what takes the "specialness" from actually being one. It used to be many could work a lifetime and never achieve that rank and that's what gave that rank the prestige it once had.

I don't really have anything personal against some that have strapped it on, but it definatley does not garner the same respect it once did.

Personally, I don't care. I'm not a rank chaser so it doesn't pertain all that much to me. I'm out to learn as much as I can. That can't be taken from me and in the end I show what I know when it counts; any respect I recieve is earned.

 

[Haze]

I see 10th dans issued to others by 10th dans of other arts. I know a 10th dan that had started his own association and years later awarded a 10th to his first instructor. I know a 10th that know one I talk to can euxplain his lineage in the art. I know a 10th who was promoted by Peter Urban in Nisei Goju but Frank Rueis (sp?) was the founder/head of Nisei Goju.

My last test was in 1991. Stopped looking for any rank beyond Shodan. I got enough to work on. I've been told I need to test but I have to learn someones curriculum and I really don't care to. I am what I am.