Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by skribs, Nov 19, 2018.
I think you're right on second thought. You see it quite often.
Compared to Judo or Wrestling, I would say BJJ specializes in isolating limbs or the neck to effectively submit someone, and on the defensive end - it focuses on recovering position and some type of guard; i.e. "surviving in bad situations". While Judo has newaza, and always has, the ruleset does not allow a lot of time for Tori to work and chase submissions on the ground. The safe approach is to pin for 20 seconds, get your half point so now you are up, and reset on the feet. As a result, I think a lot of the ground defense learned in BJJ is absent in Judo. Under a BJJ rule set where submission is king - you have to keep attacking on the ground, and your opponent gets to keep defending / escaping / potentially countering if you make a mistake. Fighting from the bottom and sweeping to take top position is almost non-existent in Judo, but is a big part of BJJ.
As far as current Judo influence on BJJ, the practical reality is that a lot of Judo throws just don't work well against someone who takes a lower crouching posture with hips back. Trying to move someone around on a mat to off balance them and set up a big throw becomes a fool's errand when your opponent can pull guard at any moment and thwart you. I don't say that as criticism of BJJ; it makes sense that in a competitive atmosphere that it would have evolved to that point. I think it would be interesting to see a BJJ ruleset that gave more incentive to throw / takedown vs. pull guard, but only because it would be more balanced. These days the IBJJF seems to award takedown points to the top player if they so much as tap the foot of an opponent pulling guard so people are more quick to try and pull guard before the other person can react.
Wrestling type takedowns are quite effective. The BJJ school I am part of is heavily sport influenced, and while we don't spend time on traditional Judo throws per say, there are wrestling type takedowns like single leg, ankle picks, etc that we do work regularly. Not every person is suited to pull guard and play from the bottom, especially bigger guys who try and play a top heavy game.
Having experieced a small taste of all 3, I think you are right. The way I see it, from a self defense perspective at least, you don't need to know numerous takedowns that are found in Judo. You're better off getting good at a few, whether it be wrestling or judo and then work on the ground element either via wrestling of BJJ. Judo is an awesome art for sure, but i see your point. Wrestlers stay low and that doesn't work well for a judoka.
What you'll see at a lot of MMA clubs now is 'submission wrestling', which is basically a synthesis of all three styles(mostly bjj/wrestling I guess, but we have a judo guy where I train)
If the Judo rule set was not so narrow, it would end up looking a lot more like Sambo. "Submission wrestling" is kind a generic cover term but in some places I have seen those eclectic systems borrow heavily from Sambo. Russian Ties, arm drags, standing back takes - a lot of stand up work not really used or seen in Judo.
That is happening to a lot of non-MMA clubs as well. There's quite a few people who trained in BJJ, got their black belt and opened up schools that don't have BJJ in their name at all. They either just call it Jiujitsu or Submission grappling instead.
Hmm, I'd have thought BJJ would be the better marketing. That's almost certainly true around here (unless the whole place is marketed as MMA), but our area does tend to lag behind trends, so maybe it's different elsewhere?
Oh, the Bjj name still carries a ton of value. Most people call what they do "Bjj" by default. However, when you start combining so many methods together (Judo, BJJ, Sambo, MMA, Folkstyle, Catch, Greco, Mongolian, Hayastan, Turkish, etc.) people start wanting to claim something else. It doesn't help that the Gracie family is desperately trying to contain BJJ within their own definitions.
My gf's son started wrestling this fall. He's 10. I love watching their practices. The aggressiveness, conditioning, and focus on takedowns and avoiding takedowns is great. It will certainly toughen you up and provides you with more athleticism. Of all the grappling arts, it probably is the best place to start for a young kid.
Because i couldn't find a thread to ask this, so in essence you can have a BJJ school which looks similar to X,Y,Z other style of grappling with only the addition of other methodologies in it?
Kind of looks weird now i have written it.
I know it's an older post, but it's still relevant.
Unfortunately, that is far from a solid display of striking.
Do you know anything about the guys involved - like with regard to what level they're considered to be?
GNP being "ground 'n' pound" I assume?
I'll credit the Brazilians for developing the catchy name.
But considering that back in the 80s we had something that was nothing like a new idea, it was just called "get someone on the floor, sit on them and hit them until they give up".
Doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that nobody can be legitimately credited with the idea...
Allow me to assure you that, from my own personal experience, this Super Secret Ninja Technique existed at least 20 years before that.
I suspect this was originally developed by Og (the REAL OG) when he whooped Ug.
OG Vs. UG?
How long before someone claims they were Orville Gracie and Uriah Gracie - the lesser known ones who weren't so good at coming up with names?
I really think that as far as beating people up goes, there is essentially nothing that hasn't been around for thousands of years - apart from the names and being codified into a system.
Additional to above...
It seems to come around regularly that certain techniques are unique to certain arts, and people put quite some effort into proving that a specific type of punch or stance in one art was stolen/inspired by another art, or not.
It's all rubbish.
People have been people for 200,000+ years, and for all that time have shared a common physiology. There's only so much range of movement.
Also in all that time the one consistent aim has been finding new and exciting ways to kill others...
Much like a million monkeys with a million typewriters coming up with the complete works of Shakespeare - what are the chances that there's something that billions of people over hundreds of thousands of years haven't tried already?
The guy was a boxer who was taking lessons in Japan with a Bjj instructor. After class the boxer asked to go a few rounds with the BJJ instructor to make sure what he was learning would work against someone trying to punch them.
Who is "we"?
I was talking about the hierarchy system (offense: takedown, move to positional dominance, submit/defense: recover, guard, move to positional dominance, submit), not the GNP specifically.
"We" was kids at school having scraps.
And the "hierarchy system" is just putting names to the things people have been doing for aeons - there's an order that works, you can't change it around and expect the same outcome.
He didn't seem a very skilled boxer.
He was tentative in his movements, he appeared to make very little effort to control range, he left his punches hanging out for far too long (especially that cross, could've grown moss on that).
And being a boxer explains absolutely ignoring any other 'weapon' than the front of the fist.
He was also hampered by wearing boxing gloves.
I really hope you don't consider that a good example of striking.
Just because you're punching doesn't mean you're doing Boxing.
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