Bjj v. wrestling

[OrangeLeopard]

I work on bjj with my instructor who actually did it professionaly for a while. I never got to do it as much as I would like to but he just starting to teach bjj/ grappling that runs alongside of our sparring classes. one of the kids who I grapple with is an amazing scholastic wrestler (second in our state). I was wondering what your thoughts were on the differences of bjj and scholastic wrestling and if one can actually compete on the same level as the other.

 

[MJS]

I work on bjj with my instructor who actually did it professionaly for a while. I never got to do it as much as I would like to but he just starting to teach bjj/ grappling that runs alongside of our sparring classes. one of the kids who I grapple with is an amazing scholastic wrestler (second in our state). I was wondering what your thoughts were on the differences of bjj and scholastic wrestling and if one can actually compete on the same level as the other.

I give alot of credit to wrestlers. They have some awesome takedowns and the clinch work is very good also. One of the things that it lacks is submissions. This was evident in UFC 4, when Dan Severn fought Royce Gracie. Mark Coleman was another example. Both had excellent takedowns and very good ground control, but that was the extent of it. However, many wrestlers have begun to cross train in BJJ/Submission wrestling, to give them that extra edge and round out their training.

Mike

 

[arnisador]

Cross-training these is great. The takedowns from wrestling are very helpful.

 

[kempo-vjj]

Doing some groundwork in class, I have noticed when up against someone who has been a wrestler, that yes, they already have a set of skills, with good takedowns and mat movement. But some flaws were they tended to forget to not turn back to the opponent (choke). Which is a mistake I learned after a few times. And the other is striking which not ingrained in them. Of course some have skills beyond most you were just mat rats in high school.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

While wrestling doesn't have "submissions", it does have a lot of stuff that can be used as a submission. A lot of the techniques that are used as pins, reversals, etc. are basically joint locks.

Wrestling has a lot to offer submission grapplers, it certainly helped me.

 

[DuckofDeath]

Not being on your back is of paramount importance in scholastic wrestling; fighting while on your back is one of the signature moves of BJJ, however. Successful transitions can be made from wrestling to BJJ, though; BJJ black belt Eric Williams in Houston came from a collegiate wrestling background.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

I went from sub grappling to wrestling and back again just fine. Wrestling helped me focus on my top game and stop relying on the guard so much. I also learned to get people off my back a lot better than I would have if I never gave it up.

 

[JKogas]

I think that if you train in BJJ anymore, you're also getting a LOT of wrestling techniques. There isn't really any "pure" BJJ in this day and age. This is because so many wrestlers have gotten into BJJ. As a result, the takedowns and control is getting better and better all the time.


-John

 

[arnisador]

I think that if you train in BJJ anymore, you're also getting a LOT of wrestling techniques. There isn't really any "pure" BJJ in this day and age. This is because so many wrestlers have gotten into BJJ.

You make a good point, but I would go a little further...many BJJers are adding wrestling for the takedowns and for the experience of working against wrestlers. I see a lot of cross-training between these communities.

 

[Shogun]

I think that if you train in BJJ anymore, you're also getting a LOT of wrestling techniques. There isn't really any "pure" BJJ in this day and age.

I have to disagree. Although correct for the most part, it is not entirly my opinion. Helio Gracie's current lineage (Gracie Academy) and Pedro Sauer Academy both use the old method of Jiu Jitsu. almost all other schools do use wrestling techniques in their BJJ, though. this comes from MMA training. If you sparred with a Pedro Sauer student, you'll feel it. They are like noodles. and, like noodles, the more you play with them the more they get sticky and start to wrap around you.....

 

[JKogas]

I have to disagree. Although correct for the most part, it is not entirly my opinion. Helio Gracie's current lineage (Gracie Academy) and Pedro Sauer Academy both use the old method of Jiu Jitsu. almost all other schools do use wrestling techniques in their BJJ, though. this comes from MMA training. If you sparred with a Pedro Sauer student, you'll feel it. They are like noodles. and, like noodles, the more you play with them the more they get sticky and start to wrap around you.....

You mean to say that there aren't any front quarter nelsons? No one does a pancake? No duck unders? No single legs? No sprawling? No short-drags to get out of the quarter position on the bottom?

I didn't realize that. I see them almost everywhere.

-John

 

[arnisador]

the quarter position on the bottom?

Hmmm, I don't know this by this name?

 

[Gray Phoenix]

BBJ and Wrestling are pretty much the same thing. The differences are in origin, but they have become so melded by the rules of ring, they have become one in the same.

 

[MJS]

BBJ and Wrestling are pretty much the same thing. The differences are in origin, but they have become so melded by the rules of ring, they have become one in the same.

Prior to people cross training in both arts, and adding aspects from one another, I'd have to say that there was a distinct difference.

Wrestlers have now added the submissions, positions, etc. from BJJ, and the BJJ players have added clinch work, takedowns, etc. from Wrestling, so yes, now I can see them as more one in the same.

Mike

 

[Han-Mi]

Wresteling is great for ground and pound, but leaves a person open in plenty of ways for BJJ submissions and locks. If you have 2 equally skilled opponents, the emphasis would have to be on the finish, and In my oppinion the BJJ would have the upper hand on number of opportunities and ability to capitalize. And this is coming from someone who wrestled for 6 years scholastically and dabbles in BJJ.

 

[arnisador]

BBJ and Wrestling are pretty much the same thing. The differences are in origin, but they have become so melded by the rules of ring, they have become one in the same.

I know what you mean, but I think it's much too soon to make this strong of a statement. But, I think BBJ is absorbing a lot of wrestling...less so the other way around.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

BBJ and Wrestling are pretty much the same thing. The differences are in origin, but they have become so melded by the rules of ring, they have become one in the same.

No... actual wrestling is very different from BJJ. Look at the rules.

 

[Shogun]

You mean to say that there aren't any front quarter nelsons? No one does a pancake? No duck unders? No single legs? No sprawling? No short-drags to get out of the quarter position on the bottom?

I didn't realize that. I see them almost everywhere.

-John

I can tell you those arent Traditional BJJ tehcniques. The Bajana is the double leg, but it is VERY different from Wrestling's takedown. BJJ doesnt sprawl. we pull guard. If you are talking about stuff in MMA then yes, all of those are there. Rolls Gracie and Carlson GRacie brought wrestling and Sambo into the world of Vale Tudo . Carlson uses a lot og wrestling in his branch of BJJ but I was talking about Helio, Rorion, Pedro sauer, Royler, or any of the BJJ traditionalists. What is a short quarter drag? BJJ has about 90 sweeps.....

 

[analyst]

No... actual wrestling is very different from BJJ. Look at the rules.

Nail on the head.

I'm an ex-highschool wrestler, reasonably skilled (won league but didn't go to state). I took BJJ a couple months ago for some 6-odd sessions. Did a lot of rolling with more experienced people. Here are my thoughts:

-I could almost always get the takedown on a BJJ person. That could have just been a flaw of my bjj gym, as it was just too small to allow a lot of standing work.
-I could usually maintain position, and sometimes improve it on lesser-skilled BJJ-ers
-I could usually prevent submission attempts
-But it always resulted in a stalemate with me in their guard, unable to pass

so basically, doing pure collegiate or freestyle wrestling gives you a very good sense of movement, balance, and position. The takedowns rock and it gives you almost a 6th sense on the ground for position. But you will stall out due to lack of any submissions. Being "in guard" is a new experience, as a wrestler I was like "what now. He's on his damn back, i won."

ALthough in reality I could've just punched him out. Under BJJ rules I just sat there and tried to avoid collar chokes and armbars.

To reiterate the poster I quoted, both are styles adapted to their rules. Neither is complete, I daresay BJJ is more effective than wrestling just because "keep some guy on his back" is not a viable combat goal but "break his arm" comes a little closer.

 

[Shogun]

Not to doubt your skill of wrestling, I am sure you are amazing, but what rank were these BJJ guys? It sounds like they are missing the point of Brasilian Jiu Jitsu, which is to get positioning before going for a submission. My friend is an outstanding Collegiate wrestler, placed second in state, is a payed Pro wrestler, and now wrestles for national, and I can tell you he would'nt be able to last more than 2-4 minutes with a BJJ purple belt or even blue belt who wanted to tap him. maybe not so in every case, as some people just arent good at applying BJJ but most that practice it are.

Let me finish by saying I do not doubt any wrestling. I wrestled in school for a little bit, I have Pro wrestling training, and love all aspects of wrestling. I am simply saying that a BJJ guy works on sweeps and submissions, and SHOULD be able to do them.
this goes back to me saying that people should not rush to get their BJJ ranks as they make the art look bad. You cannot get a BJJ Black belt in 3 years.