Bjj v. wrestling

[Shogun]

its kinda hard to explain. obviously, catch wrestling has the armbar and rear naked choke, but stuff like the armbar and Bicep slicer are applied differently. they have the potential to cause as much damage, but they are applied in a way that causes pain much quicker. I have seen people in the UFC who do not tap from an armbar right away. a catch wresler's armbar causes extreme pain on the tendons and nerves, forcing a quicker submission.

 

[arnisador]

Interesting...I'll have to find a seminar on it or something.

 

[Shogun]

That'd be easier. a good reference is the Tony Cecchine Catch wrestling DVD set.

its (I think) ten tapes on four discs for 150. Most of what I know comes from Pro wrestlers, but their training took place under old school pro wrestlers like "playboy" buddy rose.
BTW, I dont know if you've done Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, but they have an application called Itami Jime, or pain choke. it can be applied to a cross choke for more effectiveness. Catch has little things like that.

 

[arnisador]

No, I'm studying BJJ now and wrestled in high school. I've done just a little bit of Judo and Aikido, but that's it for grappling arts.

Thanks for the tips--I would like to check this out.

 

[Shogun]

Your welcome. definitly check it out. I cannot explain it with my words. seek out either the dvds or one of the few instructors. be advised, Tony Cecchine, Matt Furey, and Gene Lebell all come from different lineages, and therefore, different techniques. they are considered to be today's experts. personally, studying under a retired pro wrestler from the 50's, 60's, or 70's will get you unchanged Catch without the influences of BJJ, Sambo, or Judo.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

Do you have any experience with Tony Cecchine's tapes? I've been thinking about getting his set for a while but I'm not sure about it yet. Also, if you've ever seen any tapes etc. from the other people you mentioned, which would you recommend? Thanks.

 

[Shogun]

I have a little experience with the tapes. I do not have them but have viewed them a few times. I personally like them. They were packed full of different ideas. the tapes emphasize the difference between the way BJJ does something, and the way Catch does it. Gene's dvds and books I have not seen. I have seen a little of matt furey's stuff, and it looked kinda like BJJ....so....not too sure.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

I went ahead and ordered Tony's tapes and IMO they are good, although I haven't seen any other grappling instructionals. The way he shows the positions seems more comfortable to me, probably because of the wrestling I did. Everything seems a lot tighter (possibly because it was developed without a gi unlike judo and bjj). The way he shows the keylock is awesome.

Some of the submissions seem kind of risky (such as stepping over from side control to a head scissors), though.

 

[Shogun]

they are good, although I haven't seen any other grappling instructionals.

I have seen many grappling instructionals, and I have the same opinion, so they must be good. I lve the keylock from catch. it hurts. badly.
The reason I think the positions seem risky, is that...well....catch wrestlers typically dont worry about positioning as much.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

The reason I think the positions seem risky, is that...well....catch wrestlers typically dont worry about positioning as much.

IMO the way he shows the positions offers more control (by putting more of your weight onto the opponent and taking away as much space as possible), but if you're talking about the "submission over position" strategy then I see what you're saying.

Even though he does focus on submissions more maintaining a good position, it happens in bjj, judo, etc. as well. People regularly give up the mount to go for an arm bar. Ironically, Tony shows arm bars from the mount that allow you to stay on top.

 

[Shogun]

but if you're talking about the "submission over position" strategy then I see what you're saying.

Yeah, thats what I meant.

People regularly give up the mount to go for an arm bar. Ironically, Tony shows arm bars from the mount that allow you to stay on top.

One thing that I've noticed, is that if you spend time with a BJJ master, they will show you the secret techniques such as full mount armbar (one requiring no additional movement from the mount). This stuff is kinda the norm in catch though.

 

[arnisador]

The full mount armbar--can you share this secret?

 

[NotQuiteDead]

Hmm... is it the one where you get their arm under your arm pit like you're doing an achilles lock, or one where you step one foot up by their head and lock their arm against your thigh? Those are the only ones I can think of.

 

[Shogun]

Its not really an "all powerful" techique but you can suprise someone with it.

1. mount high. pull the elbows up if you need to.
2. point knees forward, (think leapfrog) and toes on the ground. heels up.
3. turn ever so slightly to the side you are attacking.
4. pull arm like you would and armbar, but slightly towards your thigh.
5. make em say uncle

Hmm... is it the one where you get their arm under your arm pit like you're doing an achilles lock, or one where you step one foot up by their head and lock their arm against your thigh? Those are the only ones I can think of.

combine those two, and thats what it looks like.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

Shogun, have you seen anything from Hidetaka Aso, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, or Bill Coggs?

 

[Old Tiger]

Aso and Fujiwara are excellent. Bill's name is actually Bill Cogswell of www.groundfight.com . He has a number of excellent DVD's on grappling available through that site. I am sure anyone at any level of trainining will benefit from them. You may be interesting in joining and contributing to one of the best grappling forums on the internet, also available through that site.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

Oops, yeah I messed his name up. I'm already registered on his forum although I haven't posted much.

 

[Kane]

Alright I'll add my input in this thread. I have been wrestling for a very long time, for over 13 years now. I have done a little BJJ, and it is quite useful when adding with wrestling. However, it is a common misconception that wrestlers don't learn submissions, because they do. Of course this is not studied in that much detail, but we do learn some interesting techniques. We learn some leg locks, which can be very painful submissions and we also learn special headlocks that block the windpipe. Of course I am not sure whether these are legal in BJJ, I have really only done it for about 6 months. Still BJJ is very helpful for those going into MMA and want to learn submissions from the mount which wrestling offers so little of.

 

[arnisador]

we also learn special headlocks that block the windpipe.

I wrestled in high school and I used that technique to defend myself.

 

[RSJ]

Bill Cogswell and the crew over at Groundfight are awsome ! All grapplers should sign up; it'll learn you some good stuff.