What are the most universal effective takedowns?

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by TMA17, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    My mind was racing thinking about how many different takedowns there are in Judo. I love watching Judo videos. But the reality is, as I see it, you don't need to know that many. Piggybacking off the other post recently about practing one technique for a year or so, vs learning numerious techniques, what takedowns work against almost any opponent regardless of size?

    Let me use a body type example: A short muscular build with a low center of gravity. If you had to take someone built like that to the ground, what would be your go to move? Single or double leg? What particular judo takedown? Assume the opponent is shorter than you.

    For Judo I was thinking the one (can't remember the name) where you move in fast, put your right foot in between his legs, move your foot in a circular motion (to the right) and keep moving forward to knock him down.
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This gets back to something discussed in another thread, right now. In my opinion, the only reason to study a wide range of takedowns is to better understand the underlying principles that tie them together, so you can apply those principles more broadly, expanding the range of application for the few most useful takedowns.

    Of course, in a grappling competition, there's also the advantage of having a wide range of tools in your toolbox, so it's harder for your opponent to guess what's coming.

    So, what I consider the most useful:
    • single-leg (probably throw in double-leg, but I've never trained that specifically, and just see it as an extension of single-leg)
    • seoi nage and its variants (which to me includes shoulder throws and body-drop throws, including NGA's Mugger's Throw)
    • hip throw (a wide range of things fit this name)
    • off-balancing throws (this would include things like the Russian wrist snap, NGA's Spin-Around and 2-on-1, and probably Aikido's tenchi nage)
    • leg sweeps (to me, they're mostly variations of each other)
    Now, none of those are universal - all are situational. Some situations are created by rules, others by intent, others by body type, etc. if I were sticking to the most universal, I'd keep the first and last categories on that list. If I had to go for an absolute, I'd just keep the first. But that'd be a very limited repertoire.
     
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  3. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    Good stuff gpseymour.

    I saw this and it looked pretty effective.

     
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  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I like that collar drag takedown - uses similar principles to drop seoi nage. The other I like, technically, but don't feel much confidence in for some reason. I've never really analyzed why I don't see it as a reliable tool outside the BJJ context (where I accept that instructor's endorsement).
     
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  5. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    Great topic
    So for my self defense classes we focus on effective, naturalish, throws that dont require two hand grasping points. Including throws such as:

    1. Reaps - focusing on clavicle push set up and adaptive variations such as karate's folding screen throw that basically is pushing the chin back as you reap.
    2. Hip throws - focusing on a side hip rolling throw (more just offsetting the opponent) but mostly the shoulder wheel where one arm is pushing on their head during the entire throw.
    3. Head pulls - pulling or twisting on the head/ears/nose/chin till they eventually go down, very effective from clinching
    4. Double leg - cause i typically see people go for it without training so id like to see people atleast do it right
    5. Levering throws - such as the breath throw (kokyu nage)

    They work great for quickly getting an inexperienced person to be able to successfully throw someone
     
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  6. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    They're all good if you can work them well. To me, number 3 of Christopher's post above, or an old fashion American football tackle.
     
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  7. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Sounds like O Uchi Gari, which I've had some success with.
     
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  8. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    That's the one Tony, thanks!
     
  9. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I’m answering this as a wrestler, but I’m pretty confident that the same thing applies in Judo...

    You need to know a lot of throws, even though you may only end up using a handful. The more throws you know, the more you know how to avoid/counter. If you don’t know the lateral throw, you’ll push back when your opponent pushes into you. Once you push back just enough, he’ll use your push to help him throw you. Knowing that throw, even if you never use it keeps you from setting yourself up for it. Same for practically any other throw.

    The more throws you know, the more you realize how important it is to keep a solid stance. Arms in close enough, knees bent enough, not leaning too far forward or backward. Just maintaining that will negate most throws. Why? They won’t be able to use your arms against you, your weight against you, etc. They’ll have to muscle every throw.

    When you see judoka constantly using the same throws over and over again, it’s because the opponents are negating the other throws. It’s beca they’re setting the opponent up for that throw by getting him to adjust/counter different throws. Keep the opponent moving and they’ll break their stance, this opening them up for the particular throw they’re actually looking for. If all the did was go for that one throw every time without setting it up properly, it would never work on an opponent who’s got some experience.

    It’s like watching boxers constantly knocking out people with a left hook. If all they knew was that left hook and didn’t throw anything else, it would never land. Or at least never land cleanly enough to KO beyond a once in a blue moon lucky punch.
     
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  10. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    Great points JR. Do you think Judo throws though are from too high of a stance? I've read that when faced against a wrestler, which keep a lower stance, it's harder to pull off many Judo throws.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Others here have far more Judo experience than me, but here’s my take. Most Judo techniques won’t directly apply against that low wrestling stance. The principles will still apply, though, so a Judoka should be able to manage some takedowns. The bigger problem is what JR is getting at: the Judoka won’t have the counters for several key wrestling takedowns.
     
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  12. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    That’ll also work the other way too. If I as a wrestler don’t know what a judoka is looking for, he’ll set me up easily. No different than if I don’t know what a BJJer is looking for, I could leave an arm somewhere where he wants it for an arm bar.
     
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  13. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I think on average judoka are probably standing a bit higher, but not to the point they can’t adjust. I have practically zero Judo experience. But watching them, the principles are practically the same - off balance them, leverage, push/pull, etc. One major difference that stands out to me is the use of the thrower’s leg in a lot of throws in Judo. It looks like it adds a bit of extra I don’t know... oomph... to their throws. A competent judoka shouldn’t have much problem adjusting to a wrestler and vice versa.
     
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  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    In this case, I think the advantage of surprise goes to the wrestler. The stance frustrates a lot of standard Judo strategy. My personal take is that Wrestling focuses more on avoiding the takedown, and Judo focuses more on getting the takedown. That latter focus leaves more openings, somewhat by design.
     
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  15. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    Makes sense. I can't remember where I read it, but it was talking about how most Judokas stand in a more upright stance. So far in my experience in Judo this is what we do. That upright stance is a problem for a wrestler who stands low, but as JR pointed out, the judoka could also set up the wrestler if he's good enough. I'm making a transition soon to a BJJ school 5 minutes away. The guy studied under Gracie. They teach more basic takedowns with lower stances.
     
  16. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    Ok here is where I saw it.

    Judo for BJJ - Grapplearts

    1. Learn to deal with stances that are overly defensive. Most BJJ matches will have both competitors in a bent over defensive posture that would be a defensive penalty in judo. Secondly, double leg takedowns are popular in BJJ but prohibited in the current judo rules, so the BJJ player must use a lower stance to defend against that attack. Judoka in contrast use a very strong upright stance.

    "I asked World Champion Xande Ribeiro at a seminar how he felt training in judo improved his BJJ. Instead of naming specific techniques like I assumed, he said that the attributes of explosiveness, gripping and balance/ momentum were the most important things that carried over for him."
     
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  17. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think a lot of this gets back to context. Unless you're facing a BJJ player or wrestler, you might never see someone in that low stance, so Judo has less problem in self-defense in general than when facing BJJ or wrestling.
     
  19. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I don’t think it’s that at all. A wrestler will try to take you down without being taken down first. Judo isn’t any different as far as I know.

    But the basic stance...

    Wrestlers will take you down by either throwing you or single/double leg takedown. They’re attacking and defending the legs. If a wrestler stands too high, single/double leg takedown time. Stands too low, pull them down with a grab to the back of the neck.

    When we’re talking about wrestlers getting low in their stance, we’re thinking folkstyle (collegiate/scholastic) and freestyle. Watch Greco-Roman wrestling; they’ll typically stand as high as judoka. Why? They’re not allowed to attack the legs in Greco. Therefore it’s all throws.

    Judo doesn’t allow leg takedowns anymore, and to be honest, I don’t think it was an often used thing anyway. Maybe just the level I’ve seen though. I worked the Empire State Games for several years. It was basically an NYS Olympics. Working wrestling most years, Judo was either on the other side of the arena or started before or after wrestling. I always hung around to watch it and help out. According to a lot of sources, the Empire State Games was a very high level Judo competition. Basically a step below international level competition. I didn’t see any leg takedowns. The biggest difference I saw was the pace. Wrestling was high pressure and make things happen, Judo was was more stand your ground and counter.

    Edit: Wrestling was predominantly college guys. Judoka were typically a few years older on average. Think early 20s guys vs mid-late 20s guys.
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I was speaking philosophically. It accounts for the difference in stance, and the rules in Judo that penalize too much defense. You are correct they're basically approaching the same job, but with a slight difference in priority.

    I think you're correct about Judo never having much in leg takedowns. I don't recall any from my experience with it 30+ years ago.
     

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