What do BJJ, Judo, and Wrestling specialize in?

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by skribs, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Probably the three most popular grappling arts (at least in my mind), what is it that each of these specialize in?

    Why would someone want to pick one over the other, if all other factors (location, cost, pedigree of instruction, etc) are equal?

    I know that BJJ has an emphasis on the ground game, but what do Judo and Wrestling do that BJJ doesn't? What do each of them do that the other doesn't?
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't know enough of wrestling to speak to it, at all. Of BJJ, I know only what I see of it currently. Of Judo, I mainly know what it was when I studied it briefly more than 30 years ago. Those caveats given, here's my take:

    BJJ specializes in controlling from guard and escaping (or submitting) from mount. Side mount/control is a variation on this theme. That's probably a gross over-simplification.

    Judo specializes in throwing and avoiding being thrown. When I studied, that wasn't as deep a specialization - we spent significant time studying ground work that you now see more in BJJ, so there were a lot of arm locks and ground control.
     
  3. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Judo is Japanese Jacket wrestling. They specialize in upright throws, but they do have newaza and chokes. However, the highest goal in judo is the perfect five point throw where the opponent lands on their back for an ippon.

    There's multiple types of Wrestling all around the world. Typically Wrestling involves takedowns and throws where the goal is to pin your opponent to the mat.

    Bjj specializes in ground fighting and submissions. The logic behind the art is that an opponent is weaker on the ground than on their feet.

    Bjj is rapidly becoming a one-stop grappling shop, absorbing aspects of every grappling style and applying it to its transitions and positional system. They're absorbing throws from Judo, takedowns from Wrestling, and leg locks from CACC, all while refining their guard system.

    Not to knock Judo and Wrestling, but you'd be hard-pressed to find something in Judo or Wrestling that isn't in Bjj on some level. That isn't true vice-versa, especially with Judo's ever-increasingly absurd rule system.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Do you think BJJ really is incorporating a lot of Judo throws? I haven't paid much attention, but don't see a lot of takedowns in my research. I'd like to think it is, because (as you pointed out) the rule changes are changing Judo in a way I don't like.
     
  5. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    It depends on the desires of the head instructor. Some prefer Judo throws, others prefer wrestling, while others prefer old school Gracie takedowns, while still others prefer sport-based Bjj takedowns like Jump Guard and the Imanari Roll, while others prefer a mixture of all the above.

    Guerilla Jiujitsu is a version of Bjj that incorporates Judo throws into the system entirely.

    Home

    However, I think that the vast majority of the Bjj community is moving towards wrestling takedowns because wrestling is evolving alongside Bjj and MMA while Judo is sorta stagnating. Most Bjj guys looking towards Judo are closely tied with gi competition. Everyone else is focused on MMA, No-gi, and Self defense, and wrestling helps a lot in those arenas.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
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  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I don't think there is any difference between Chinese wrestling hip throw and Judo hip throw. I don't know whether western wrestling and BJJ have hip throw or not. So the difference may not be in the technique but in the strategy.

    The main strategy difference used in the Chinese wrestling is "tearing - tear apart your opponent's grip and drag him around to create opportunity". You want to have a grip on your opponent, but you don't want your opponent to have any grip on you". You don't see this strategy used in BJJ, Judo, or western wrestling.

    You can do dragging with jacket.









    You can also do dargging without jacket.

     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
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  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think current Judo rules penalize holding the jacket unless you are throwing. I learned more prolonged jacket grabbing and pulling than I see in Judo today.
     
  8. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    BJJ from what I was told is borrowing more from wrestling for takedowns than Judo. BJJ is more ground and submissions, wrestling is more takedowns/takedown defense and control and Judo is mostly the art of throwing. Judo throws and takedowns are wicked. But if you're a good wrestler or BJJ player, you don't need to know the vast majority of Judo throws I would think. Non-expert here just giving you my two cents.

    Judo is ideal in winter time when someone comes up to you and gets in your space then you flip them on the ground fast and you're done. LOL
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    BJJ tries to use "pull guard" and "jump guard" as a short cut to replace the throwing skill training.

    It all depends on the rule set. If to lift your opponent over your shoulder can end the fight, The throwing skill will be more emphasized in BJJ.

    If you can use firemen's carry to lift your opponent over your shoulder, you can smash his head on the wall over and over. IMO, it should be considered as effective finish move in all MA "sport".

    It's much easier to drag your opponent down than to lift him up.


    [​IMG]
     
  10. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Throwing skill isn't emphasized in Bjj because of its history in Vale Tudo, Challenge fights, and street fighting where a jacket/Gi wasn't always available. Thus takedowns and throws in Bjj are more heavily based on wrestling than Judo. This is also why Bjj translates more smoothly to MMA than Judo does, because Gjj is essentially Bjj for Vale Tudo/MMA. The mistake is believing that Judo throws were simply removed from Bjj and the Brazilians focused on Newaza. The truth is that Maeda spent almost a decade fighting Catch Wrestlers and Boxers and he had to adapt Judo (or Kano-Jiujitsu) to fit his needs (again, situations where a nice, strong loose fitting Gi wasn't always available), which is where the more clench-based takedowns of old-school Bjj come from. You can see this in videos of Maeda doing his techniques. They guy is bare chested and frankly looks like a catch wrestler.

    As for Guard Pulling, I don't know what people expect out of a Bjj competition match. If you want to see people in Gis throw each other, just watch Judo. If you think a Bjjer is going to get into a throwing contest with a Judoka while in a competition, you're crazy.
     
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  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I didn't know that wrestling has more influence to BJJ than Judo has.

    I thought

    JJJ -> BJJ
    JJJ -> Judo

    I have always believed that too much Jacket dependency is a bad idea.
     
  12. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I wouldn't say more. There's definitely some old-school Jiujitsu in Gracie JJ, and it's even taught in a way that wouldn't be out of place in a traditional JJJ school. The problem is that given the nature of newaza, its hard to tell where Judo ends and wrestling begins. This is why the Kodokan and Kano changed the rules on newaza because he (Kano) felt that Judo was beginning to look too much like wrestling. Heck, I would argue that Kano had a personal distaste for Judo newaza as a whole, and would have preferred to purge it from Judo completely if possible. People for example say that Judo banned leg locks because they were too dangerous to practice, however other grappling systems have practiced leg locks just fine for decades. I believe that leg locks were banned because their use was (again) making Judo appear too much like wrestling.

    Ironically Kano pulled some moves from western wrestling when he created Judo, and I personally don't know what techniques came from ancient Japan, and which techniques were borrowed from western wrestling.

    Anyways, back to BJJ: The positional hierarchy system in traditional BJJ seems to have come from NHB fighting or street fighting. I've never come across a JJJ or wrestling system where the goal is to get on top of someone and GNP them into a submission, so I have to believe that the Brazilians developed this on their own (along with the Guard system). This belief is backed by how easily modern MMA has adopted Bjj's positional hierarchy system. So Bjj is more than likely a combo of (in order of importance) Judo Newaza, Street Fighting/NHB, Wrestling, and Japanese JJ.
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not convinced it would be possible to tell the difference between the influence of early Judo and JJJ, in most cases. I don't know the early GJJ/BJJ proponents' exposure to other JMAists, but I'd expect Maeda (crap, did I remember that name right? too lazy to look it up) to have some knowledge of JJJ techniques, beyond what was commonly seen in Kano's Jiujitsu at that time.
     
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  14. Rat

    Rat Black Belt

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    Getting **** done. :p

    I have heard of judo be specialized for throws because of the quantity of the ones they use or something like that. But then most of the 3 tend to do similar things and then you have a plethora of different wrestling styles which encompass different rules, thus techniques.
     
  15. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Nah, Judo specialized in throws because Kano wanted to keep Judo distinct from wrestling. If you look at what's happening to (sport) Bjj, the line between what is Bjj and what is wrestling is starting to blur. That's what would have happened to Judo without Kano's consistent influence (and interference) within Judo's development.
     
  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    There was an old Chinese wrestling master when he wrestled outdoor, he had one shoe and one white sock on. He would stand on one leg. When he obtained grips on his opponent, he would give his leading leg and let his opponent to hole on it. No matter what his opponent might do, he could always flip his opponent over his leg. After the match, his leading leg white sock was still clean. In the entirely match, his leading foot didn't touch on the ground.

    To be able to maintain single leg balance after throwing is a very important Chinese wrestling training. IMO, this Chinese wrestling training is one major difference from Judo, western wrestling, and BJJ.



     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  17. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Solid display of BJJ takedowns vs striking.
     
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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Very nice!
     
  19. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    In a real fight situation without gloves the guy throwing has a good chance of really hurting his hand too. Another reason to go for the takedown.
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think that risk is very overstated. I've known a bunch of guys who got into fistfights, most of them with little or no training, without hurting their hands. That includes some knockdown punches. I can only think of one of them who ever really injured his hand significantly.
     
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