Self Traning and Ranking Group

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

"......An organization needs a competent Master or Grandmaster to be in charge! This will insure that the next generation will pass things on to the future the important key points to the future generations......"

Maybe you might want to operationally define "in charge". I think you will find that the oriental definition and the Western definition differ significantly. I could be off-base on this but the standard interpretation of "in charge" here in the West seems to be along the lines of "power or authority resides with....". The Oriental take on this is more along the lines of "guidance is provided by....". Since most folks I know assume that participation in the Hapkido arts is something they are passing through on their way to somewhere else, I guess I can understand where you are coming from. My understanding of these arts is that they are a matter of development that is on-going and never quite completed. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Kevin,

To me this post will be the tell tale sign of what the seniors on this board are willing to do or just continue to talk about the problems with our current Associations and do nothing.

I see this as a hugh step in unity of people, curriculum, ideas, brotherhood, without the negitive asspects. My proposal is simple, non-restrictive, and low cost, all that's needed in for people to unite.

If it doesn't and we hear the same thing over and over I'll understand most are full of you know what.

Greetings Stuart:
Please tell me why people like JR West and myself should support a new organization that is in direct competition with USKMAF and NKMAA????

I started what you are still talking about back in the early 70s, and I am sure JR has had an equal if not longer experience doing "his thing". We (at least I) did it for the very same reasons you have stated. We had similar problems way back then, and we DID do something about it. So, it sort of galls me to have you imply that the seniors of this forum do not DO anything. We DID something about it thirty years ago.

JR has a great series of seminars going, and I dare say that folks enjoy the ones I put on as well. In addition, we both travel wherever our members are located. We are not talking part time here, we are talking a full time effort to promote Hap Ki Do and help people who are interested in learning. Yes, we both charge, but I believe our fees are reasonable... else people would not attend. $35.00 for a lifetime membership with FREE training anytime someone comes to visit me. $45.00 for a weekend long seminar where we work, sweat, and learn together. Does this sound to anyone as though I am getting filthy rich from NKMAA??? In addition, I have also given a number of free seminars to help out fellow martial artists. All of this I did (and still do on a daily basis) without the help of the folks who are still in the talking stages here.

NKMAA IS a Government registered non profit association. I DO earn a modest living from teaching in my school; however, I only began earning a living from martial arts after I injured myself at work in 1983. Before that, I never took a penny from my school and turned every dollar back into training so I could do a better job for my students. Anyone here who is willing (and able) to NOT have an income of some sort???? Please tell me again why I should drop what I have worked for thirty some years to build (without anyone's help) so I can stop earning a living. While you are at it, send a memo to JR and tell him that he should join this new group so he can cancel his Jackson seminars. I am sure that the folks who so tremendously enjoy attending our seminars will appreciate us abandoning them for something that has not withstood the test of time (and may never get off the ground).

Sorry to sound a bit cynical here folks, but it really blows my mind to read an insinuation that Senior members are NOT willing to work for the good of Hap Ki Do. Where the heck were you all thirty some years ago when I had the same conversations with North-American leaders of Korean martial arts. More recently I saw Hal take a beating for his eforts to do his best for the Korean martial arts community despite all the hard work HE did. Who was there to help him when he asked for your support.

Like one gentleman said... why do you need another org, and what makes you think you can run it (with a group of ranking martial artists) without getting into politics??? JR and I, as well as several other leaders in Korean martial arts support one another as it is. I work free at his seminars, and I pay my own way to drive nearly 3000 miles return trip to assist those who come to his event. Perhaps he will do the same for me someday, but if he does not it is OK. I do it because I care enough to assist him in his efforts.

I also encourage people to join JRs organization if they are closer to him, and JR does the same in return. Neither of us worry about losing a member, because we care more about our members than we care about the few dollars they represent. Oddly enough, most of them remain members of BOTH organizations. I write this not to try and dissuade you from doing what you think must be done, I simply give you a few reasons why some Senior leaders are not responding. In the end, I truly wish you the best, because I DO care about Hap Ki Do.

 

[glad2bhere]

Thank you, Rudy. I think it probably carries more weight coming from you than it did coming from me a couple of strings back.

If we are going to talk about organizations and hierarchies, then it would follow that there are "good ones" and "bad ones". The choice seems plain that we can deride the bad ones and support the good ones or some combination of the two. For my part I am not a huge fan of organizations, but if I were I would think that throwing my weight behind existing organizations (of which there is quite a choice) and supporting the organization which I found met my needs would be a better approach.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Thank you, Rudy. I think it probably carries more weight coming from you than it did coming from me a couple of strings back.

If we are going to talk about organizations and hierarchies, then it would follow that there are "good ones" and "bad ones". The choice seems plain that we can deride the bad ones and support the good ones or some combination of the two. For my part I am not a huge fan of organizations, but if I were I would think that throwing my weight behind existing organizations (of which there is quite a choice) and supporting the organization which I found met my needs would be a better approach.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce:
You have been to JRs events, and you have been to my events in Chicago and at my humble abode. You know first hand that there were NO agendas, no one pressured you to join, and you were not treated any different because you were not a member of NKMAA. In fact, you were a welcome addition to an nice group of people doing just what you are all talking about... training togethere in harmony with respect for all. sure we had people on the floor who were NOT Hap Ki Doin, but we worked with them instead of sneering at them or otherwise making them feel unwelcome. Is that not the "way".

NKMAA celebrates its 30th anniversary this year, and I dare say that it has grown more in the last five years than in the twenty-five years before that. I attribute that to the fact that in the first 25 years I did not charge anything, and I did not take the lead so to speak. NKMAA was at that time a group of people doing the same thing we are talking about here, and it did not go anywhere because it had no real leadership. Members bickered because they all had a say in what went on, and NO ONE would agree on ANYONE's ideas except their own.

Politics were supposed to be left at the door, but with a group of high ranking martial artists this just did not happen. I got sick and tired of the bickering and bull, just like we see on the forums. Let's face it, we are a rare breed, and we seldom like to dance to anyone else's tunes when we get up in rank. That is what makes organizations so difficult to run, unless there is ONE captain on the ship steering it in a direction that most can accept as reasonable and useful to their cause.

So, JR runs his ship in one direction, I take a slightly different course, but both of us provide a service to many people. What is best about this is that we can do so amicably, and with reasonable support for one another. This allows the members of each group to do what is in THEIR best interest, and we can still respect one another. Like I said, we even support one another. Now politics ARE left at the front door, because I remove anyone who brings BS to my house. I am not sure, but I would assume that JR does exactly the same thing. Could not do that until I took charge.

Both of us (and a few others) CAN have reasonable relationships with Korean orgs, because we are in a position where these folks understand we do not totally rely on them. So, the relationships are much more healthy than the one's I had before dealing from a stronger (large group) position. Now, we can take the best of both worlds.

Before I run for cover, I suggest you folks take a look at some of the threads and posts you have made right here. How often have you not bitched, complained, and even gotten downright nasty to one another. People have treatened to leave, people have resorted to name calling, and the whole gamut of other things that usually happen in a group without a strong leader. Folks cannot even be civil to one another on a consistent basis on a simple forum like this. How in the hell are you going to run an org with that much strife already present???

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

We as a group probably got like this because the "leaders" as we USED to define them did not represent themselves truthfully, created an air of conspiracy, and expected us to bow down to bogus rank claims, and outright lies about training and experience.

If a standards group threatens Rudy (or JR) then they need not participate - but Rudy, your post saying its a threat, then the next post saying that we all argue all the time smacks of your agenda - "hey, I'm already here, just join me..."

I asked everyone a few threads ago where some ranking came from for an individual you are involved with - and NO answer can be given except he is a nice guy, with some good technique - frankly, a perfect example of what divides us (see above) - what we are formulating here is an idea to establish ranking requirements that can be used across the board to help identify and teach and train in HAPKIDO - devoid of the various offshoots.

Reading these posts carefully, we all agree this is not an "organization" - but a way to identify Hapkido and use this identification to grow WITHIN our own respective organizations by giving us a jumping off point of technical knowledge where we all agree. This shouldn't affect anyones southern cray fish boils or nothern ice swimming - but it could draw us closer as a community - for those not interested, you have your own sandcastles you can build.

 

[kwanjang]

Hello all,

We as a group probably got like this because the "leaders" as we USED to define them did not represent themselves truthfully, created an air of conspiracy, and expected us to bow down to bogus rank claims, and outright lies about training and experience.

If a standards group threatens Rudy (or JR) then they need not participate - but Rudy, your post saying its a threat, then the next post saying that we all argue all the time smacks of your agenda - "hey, I'm already here, just join me..."

I asked everyone a few threads ago where some ranking came from for an individual you are involved with - and NO answer can be given except he is a nice guy, with some good technique - frankly, a perfect example of what divides us (see above) - what we are formulating here is an idea to establish ranking requirements that can be used across the board to help identify and teach and train in HAPKIDO - devoid of the various offshoots.

Reading these posts carefully, we all agree this is not an "organization" - but a way to identify Hapkido and use this identification to grow WITHIN our own respective organizations by giving us a jumping off point of technical knowledge where we all agree. This shouldn't affect anyones southern cray fish boils or nothern ice swimming - but it could draw us closer as a community - for those not interested, you have your own sandcastles you can build.

Hello Kevin:
I am neither threatened nor intimidated by what is being suggested on this forum, and I am sure JR, Hal, Geoff, and other seniors are not either. What I did say was: "I wish you success" or something like that, so don't twist my words into something that was not said.

As far as a "standards" committee (or whatever you want to name it) is concerned. I teach a hell of a lot more than what I have seen proposed so far, so I really can't say I am intimidated or worried about it. My students can prove their worth on the mat anytime and, even though I am getting on in age, I will do my best to do the same for as long as I can.

Funny how some of the loudest people on these forums can never be found on available mats such as Jackson, Hal's, Fabian's, mine, or other seminars. I traveled 10 hours to get to train with someone who came to YOUR backyard to teach. If you are so worried about his credentials, all you had to do was show up. If getting on the mat with him was not your cup of tea, at least you could have watched. THEN you would have been able to talk from PERSONAL experience with the man instead of casting stones from the sidelines. Sorry if this seems a bit harsh, but I call em as I see em.

With regards to GM Seo. I follow who I wish to follow because of what he can teach me... not for what his rank is or is not. I have NEVER said anything to the contrary. I can DO this because I am NOT in an organization that wishes to set rules and make decisions that are exclusive to benefit YOUR agenda. Hell, you folks even want to exclude the very people whom you are going to want to "control" by certification standards YOU and a "selected few" want to set. If what you propose is for the best of the Hap Ki Do community, why exclude the bulk of what makes up this community... the lower ranked Yudahnja ????? Smacks of politics to me.

GM Seo IS nice man IMHO, and that should not be a reason for me NOT to train with him. As I said before. I could care less what his rank is or what style he calls it. IMHO he does good Hap Ki Do, and I want to learn more of it. I do NOT sit on the sidelines and cast stones toward someone who is out on the mat teaching what in my opinion is good Hap Ki Do. You see, I am not interested in dividing, I am interested in bringing us together in brotherhood and harmony. YOU say he does not teach Hap Ki Do. I say he does (no matter what he has to call it in order to do business).

As far as outright lies of experience and or accrediation. MY accreditation has been posted on the DD for the world to see, and I could care less what anyone thinks about it. Just as I like to learn from others who are willing to get on the mat, I am fortunate enough to have people who want to learn what I have to share. SOME of us train and/or teach instead of worrying about what rank others have.

Did you see anywhere in my post that I call for anyone to follow ME. In fact, I said that Bruce (for one) was accepted at my Dojang without being a member, paid the same low fee of $45.00 as our members did for an entire weekend of good training, and he was NEVER was approached by ANYONE about joining NKMAA. In fact, we were very pleased to have him share some of his stuff with us (even though it was different than what I teach). I do NOT accept just anyone, and I do NOT cross rank for anyone who does not teach what I consider to be Hap Ki Do. On the other hand, I do NOT condemn those who do something a slight bit different. So, how does that make ME not interested in serving the Hap Ki Do community as you say in your post.

A steak is a steak is a steak, no matter how you wish to season it. But, if it is NOT steak, I will not call it that no matter how much they want to pay me. Is that not good enough? If YOU want to say that ONLY those who are of a direct lineage to someone are legit, that is your business. Just don't think the rest of us buy into that. In fact, it is THAT type of hype which devides this community more than anything else. FWIW, GM Seo at least did actually train with DJN Choi. Mighty few of us can make that claim, can you????

MY original post on this was very simple. It was suggested that seniors on this forum are not doing anything to support Hap Ki Do. My answer to that was "BULL". I, and a number of others, have been DOING something for Hap Ki Do for decades, and we are still DOING it rather than talking it. Perhaps in your eyes I am neither senior nor Hap Ki Do as it is defined to suit YOUR particular needs; but, there are those on this forum who have said otherwise. If you are not interested in what I have to say to them, no need to get huffy and tell me to go build sandcastles... just ignore my post

IMHO, Hap Ki Do is not well served by people who are divisive. Like Bruce has said a number of times. Let's look for what we have in common rather than shun those who flavour their steak with a different spice. If you are unwilling to recognize the efforts of GM Ji and other pioneers of our art, the result will be a mighty small group that will have NO influence on Hap Ki Do. If that is the case, why bother?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

Thanks for putting in that one comment about my NOT being amember of your organization. It will help with this post so that people know that my question is not a promo for your particular organization.

In fact my question is actually directed at Stuart.

Dear Stuart:

Having heard what Rudy has to offer, and accepting from me that JR would essentially offer the same assistance, would you be willing to advise us what it is that you think a new organization would do for you that Rudy or JR are not able to do as you see it.

I don't know about anyone else but maybe this would help me understand what it is that you think a new organization would do that can't be done by suing organizations that are already available. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Greetings Stuart:
Please tell me why people like JR West and myself should support a new organization that is in direct competition with USKMAF and NKMAA????

I started what you are still talking about back in the early 70s, and I am sure JR has had an equal if not longer experience doing "his thing". We (at least I) did it for the very same reasons you have stated. We had similar problems way back then, and we DID do something about it. So, it sort of galls me to have you imply that the seniors of this forum do not DO anything. We DID something about it thirty years ago.

JR has a great series of seminars going, and I dare say that folks enjoy the ones I put on as well. In addition, we both travel wherever our members are located. We are not talking part time here, we are talking a full time effort to promote Hap Ki Do and help people who are interested in learning. Yes, we both charge, but I believe our fees are reasonable... else people would not attend. $35.00 for a lifetime membership with FREE training anytime someone comes to visit me. $45.00 for a weekend long seminar where we work, sweat, and learn together. Does this sound to anyone as though I am getting filthy rich from NKMAA??? In addition, I have also given a number of free seminars to help out fellow martial artists. All of this I did (and still do on a daily basis) without the help of the folks who are still in the talking stages here.

NKMAA IS a Government registered non profit association. I DO earn a modest living from teaching in my school; however, I only began earning a living from martial arts after I injured myself at work in 1983. Before that, I never took a penny from my school and turned every dollar back into training so I could do a better job for my students. Anyone here who is willing (and able) to NOT have an income of some sort???? Please tell me again why I should drop what I have worked for thirty some years to build (without anyone's help) so I can stop earning a living. While you are at it, send a memo to JR and tell him that he should join this new group so he can cancel his Jackson seminars. I am sure that the folks who so tremendously enjoy attending our seminars will appreciate us abandoning them for something that has not withstood the test of time (and may never get off the ground).

Sorry to sound a bit cynical here folks, but it really blows my mind to read an insinuation that Senior members are NOT willing to work for the good of Hap Ki Do. Where the heck were you all thirty some years ago when I had the same conversations with North-American leaders of Korean martial arts. More recently I saw Hal take a beating for his eforts to do his best for the Korean martial arts community despite all the hard work HE did. Who was there to help him when he asked for your support.

Like one gentleman said... why do you need another org, and what makes you think you can run it (with a group of ranking martial artists) without getting into politics??? JR and I, as well as several other leaders in Korean martial arts support one another as it is. I work free at his seminars, and I pay my own way to drive nearly 3000 miles return trip to assist those who come to his event. Perhaps he will do the same for me someday, but if he does not it is OK. I do it because I care enough to assist him in his efforts.

I also encourage people to join JRs organization if they are closer to him, and JR does the same in return. Neither of us worry about losing a member, because we care more about our members than we care about the few dollars they represent. Oddly enough, most of them remain members of BOTH organizations. I write this not to try and dissuade you from doing what you think must be done, I simply give you a few reasons why some Senior leaders are not responding. In the end, I truly wish you the best, because I DO care about Hap Ki Do.

Dear Rudy

No disrespect to you and JR. That fact that you both have an organzation is proof that you're doing something. And no one ever said your not a charitable man or that you should stop doing what your doing. Sorry Rudy 30 years ago I was not even a teenager.

My suggestion transends the individule entrapenuer like you, JR, Hwang Sik Myung, and everybody else trying to get a peice of the Hapkido pie however good thier intention are.

My plan is for No bosses, or individules in charge just mutual respect for all.
I only call for a universal minimum technical curriculum and people qualified to test others and teach.

I said back in the begining of these post my plan is simple and might not appeal to peole in the Hapkido business and no single person has anything to gain meaning, no power, no money, no prestige.

And truthfully why would you or JR or others give up thier peice of the Hapkido pie and even out the playing field so to speak. I don't expect you to, but it would be GREAT for you to endorse a universal minimum technical curriculum so if anyone comes to you with that credential in hand they'll be accepted without question.

I would really like to see you agree with me and help us I know a few people who think this idea has merit but is needs people like you on board.

 

[kwanjang]

Dear Rudy

No disrespect to you and JR. That fact that you both have an organzation is proof that you're doing something. And no one ever said your not a charitable man or that you should stop doing what your doing. Sorry Rudy 30 years ago I was not even a teenager.

My suggestion transends the individule entrapenuer like you, JR, Hwang Sik Myung, and everybody else trying to get a peice of the Hapkido pie however good thier intention are.

My plan is for No bosses, or individules in charge just mutual respect for all.
I only call for a universal minimum technical curriculum and people qualified to test others and teach.

I said back in the begining of these post my plan is simple and might not appeal to peole in the Hapkido business and no single person has anything to gain meaning, no power, no money, no prestige.

And truthfully why would you or JR or others give up thier peice of the Hapkido pie and even out the playing field so to speak. I don't expect you to, but it would be GREAT for you to endorse a universal minimum technical curriculum so if anyone comes to you with that credential in hand they'll be accepted without question.

I would really like to see you agree with me and help us I know a few people who think this idea has merit but is needs people like you on board.

Hello Stuart:
As I alluded to in one of my posts, I have lost faith in people working together for the common good without politics becoming a big problem. Not because I don't believe in what you are trying to do, it is simply because of the results I have had over the many years of trying to get people to do similar things as you propose.

I fear that you too will be disappointed, and I do hope that this disappointment will not turn into bitterness as it might have with Fabian. Like him, I opted to go it alone after many years of busting my butt trying; however, that does not mean I have stopped working to make Hap Ki Do better. I do my piece to help Hap Ki Doin to the best of my ability, and that is what my initial post was all about.

I will continue to work with whomever is willing to make a difference, but so far I have not seen a solid plan. I am not interested in dividing us even more as some on this forum propose, and that is why I sat on the sideline until your comment got me a bit excited .

Perhaps YOU have it straight in your mind, and perhaps your plan is great. I just have not seen it translated into an understandable post on this forum. Why don't you recap your plan, and put it into an easy to read format so we can get your drift. As I said to you a long time ago here on this forum... I am willing to help you or anyone else who can make the Hap Ki Do community a better place for us all. This does not mean I will stop working with, support, or learn from Korean practitioners, even though I have been hurt more than most by some Korean GMs. I do not believe that, because I have had a few problems, it means every Korean is bad news. I am just a bit more selective these days.

NKMAA is not political, and my members will not suffer if I back a good thing. All of my members are free to join and/or stay with any group they wish. I place NO restrictions on them, and I don't expect them to restrict me in what I believe in. I offer decent looking and meaningful certification at a reasonable fee, and for most people in NKMAA that is all they want. They do not want anyone telling them how to run their business, and I don't. I do let them know if I think their curriculum is lacking a bit, and I offer solutions in the form of training and/or curriculum development to help them out. I do NOT tell them that they are not welcome because of their limitations. I do NOT certify them if I feel something is lacking, I offer HELP instead.

I already have standards I adhere to in order to accomplish that, and a universally accepted minimum standard would be welcomed by me. I do have reservations on making these "standards" a tool to get rid of people who want to study Hap Ki Do. IMHO, that is NOT a way to spread the art, and IMHO that is NOT the "way" a martial artist should even think let alone act. From what I have seen on this forum, some folks who are working with you have that very thing in mind. Perhaps I am wrong in that assumption, but that is what I read. I HOPE I am wrong.

 

[kwanjang]

Dear Rudy

...it would be GREAT for you to endorse a universal minimum technical curriculum so if anyone comes to you with that credential in hand they'll be accepted without question...

Sorry I missed addressing this portion of your post. To be honest, I already do this. When I have someone come to me with a certificate from a number of well known Hap Ki Do people, I check it out with these people. If it is correct, I accept it without question (even if what they do or know is not the same as what I do or know). For example, I would accept without reservation anyone with certification or other proof of training from Hal, JR, Geoff, Holcombe, Fabian, etc. etc. whom I have worked with and seen around.

I do not have any problems adding people to this list once I have seen what they produce (not necessarily what they can do themselves), and with the amount of traveling I do my list grows. Some good practitioners are unable to produce good students, and I would not think of promoting someone just because a person is a player himself. It is the students who I need to be comfortable with. Once I know a person produces good students I don't need to revisit that. Simple, and it has worked for me so far. Past that, all I can do is teach them what I know, and I insist that they keep what they already have instead of replacing it with what I show them.

 

[American HKD]

Sorry I missed addressing this portion of your post. To be honest, I already do this. When I have someone come to me with a certificate from a number of well known Hap Ki Do people, I check it out with these people. If it is correct, I accept it without question (even if what they do or know is not the same as what I do or know). For example, I would accept without reservation anyone with certification or other proof of training from Hal, JR, Geoff, Holcombe, Fabian, etc. etc. whom I have worked with and seen around.

I do not have any problems adding people to this list once I have seen what they produce (not necessarily what they can do themselves), and with the amount of traveling I do my list grows. Some good practitioners are unable to produce good students, and I would not think of promoting someone just because a person is a player himself. It is the students who I need to be comfortable with. Once I know a person produces good students I don't need to revisit that. Simple, and it has worked for me so far. Past that, all I can do is teach them what I know, and I insist that they keep what they already have instead of replacing it with what I show them.

Dear Rudy,

It sounds as if your on board already and we do have alot of common ground.

The minimum is to spread good quality Hapkido not prevent others from doing it. To me the word minimum really means minimum not 400-500 techniques to black belt. Maybe half of that because much is repeated or strecthed out for the purpose of catalog.

Lastly I proposed a testing board of 3 already approved people so if the 3 agree on promoting so and so it's without question to anyone. Mind you any school can teach as much as they want but the minimum is all that's required for rank.

To me that's all that's needed in the Hapkido community to unify people and ideas attitudes etc.

Thank You

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Kevin:
I am neither threatened nor intimidated by what is being suggested on this forum, and I am sure JR, Hal, Geoff, and other seniors are not either. What I did say was: "I wish you success" or something like that, so don't twist my words into something that was not said.

Correct, I misinterpreted what you said. Sorry. You've got your own group and are satisfied with it.

As far as a "standards" committee (or whatever you want to name it) is concerned. I teach a hell of a lot more than what I have seen proposed so far, so I really can't say I am intimidated or worried about it. My students can prove their worth on the mat anytime and, even though I am getting on in age, I will do my best to do the same for as long as I can.

Great, I'm glad for your students.

Funny how some of the loudest people on these forums can never be found on available mats such as Jackson, Hal's, Fabian's, mine, or other seminars. I traveled 10 hours to get to train with someone who came to YOUR backyard to teach. If you are so worried about his credentials, all you had to do was show up. If getting on the mat with him was not your cup of tea, at least you could have watched. THEN you would have been able to talk from PERSONAL experience with the man instead of casting stones from the sidelines. Sorry if this seems a bit harsh, but I call em as I see em.

Why do I need to attend a seminar with a man who apparently has senior rank not in Hapkido but Kuk Sool Won? Loud? If that is a reference to me, you don't know me for loud. I have always said I am content with my training, and see no need to travel more than I already do to train with those listed above. Because I don't do a running advertisment for everytime I travel to train, just means I don't feel the need to tell everyone on the net my every move...the guys above have nice seminars from what I am told, but I have NEVER, NOT ONE TIME, EVER insinuated that anyone was not a fine teacher or good on the mat - because I don't know. But what I do and will continue to comment on is the issue of lineage and how it relates to the thing so many call Hapkido. I do feel lineage is important, it demonstrates levels of knowledge and understanding that can be universally recognized by all of us. When people invent rank, or create rank in arts they are not ranked in it shakes the confidence of everybody in ranking across the board.

With regards to GM Seo. I follow who I wish to follow because of what he can teach me... not for what his rank is or is not. I have NEVER said anything to the contrary. I can DO this because I am NOT in an organization that wishes to set rules and make decisions that are exclusive to benefit YOUR agenda. Hell, you folks even want to exclude the very people whom you are going to want to "control" by certification standards YOU and a "selected few" want to set. If what you propose is for the best of the Hap Ki Do community, why exclude the bulk of what makes up this community... the lower ranked Yudahnja ????? Smacks of politics to me.

Lost me here, who said anything about excluding anyone? I have never seen that in my or anyone else's comments on this idea. What is my agenda (again, if this is addressed to me), do tell. Is it that I want Hapkido to have a recognized base, legitimate standards and lineage? Guilty as charged, but how does that benefit me? This is a no fee charging group, with everyone staying in their own organizations - so where's MY benefit? Except, maybe to say that a group of us have decided that we would like to see a common standard from where training across organizations as possible - big agenda there.

GM Seo IS nice man IMHO, and that should not be a reason for me NOT to train with him. As I said before. I could care less what his rank is or what style he calls it. IMHO he does good Hap Ki Do, and I want to learn more of it. I do NOT sit on the sidelines and cast stones toward someone who is out on the mat teaching what in my opinion is good Hap Ki Do. You see, I am not interested in dividing, I am interested in bringing us together in brotherhood and harmony. YOU say he does not teach Hap Ki Do. I say he does (no matter what he has to call it in order to do business).

For the record, I don't cast stones. Seo, In Sun claims (and has for what 30 years) to be the head of the organization in Korea granted sole authority over Hapkido, and some 31 other martial arts. I asked, politely, about his credentials to do so - and NO ONE could answer. Now, again, is he a good man, good father, good teacher, I DON'T KNOW - AND FRANKLY DON'T CARE - and have NEVER stated otherwise - I am only interested in his MEGA rank in Hapkido - that is not casting stones - to question rank is only common sense. If questioning rank in your opinion is divisive, sorry, I want people to come together too, but when we describe Hapkido I think is it relevant to know and understand how the rankings stack up.

I have never said he doesn't teach Hapkido - but he is ranked in Kuk Sool Won - now that is not a business thing and it is misleading to try and cite this. The Kuk Sool Won camp has for more than 20 years maintained they are NOT Hapkido, but an entirely different art where Suh, In Hyuk was a contemporary of Choi, Yong Sul and not a student - so I dont' say he doesn't teach Hapkido - he does.

As far as outright lies of experience and or accrediation. MY accreditation has been posted on the DD for the world to see, and I could care less what anyone thinks about it. Just as I like to learn from others who are willing to get on the mat, I am fortunate enough to have people who want to learn what I have to share. SOME of us train and/or teach instead of worrying about what rank others have.

Sorry, I was not commenting at all about you. I made a statement that many people are jaded with "leaders" (note, not SENIORS) because of the misrepresentations they make. I train to learn, but only accept rank, if it is offered from those qualified to give it - so yes in some ways I do worry about rank - you don't have to, and that is fine, just as it should be fine with you for those of us that actually care about it.

Did you see anywhere in my post that I call for anyone to follow ME. In fact, I said that Bruce (for one) was accepted at my Dojang without being a member, paid the same low fee of $45.00 as our members did for an entire weekend of good training, and he was NEVER was approached by ANYONE about joining NKMAA. In fact, we were very pleased to have him share some of his stuff with us (even though it was different than what I teach). I do NOT accept just anyone, and I do NOT cross rank for anyone who does not teach what I consider to be Hap Ki Do. On the other hand, I do NOT condemn those who do something a slight bit different. So, how does that make ME not interested in serving the Hap Ki Do community as you say in your post.

What? Where did I say you were not interested in serving the Hapkido Community? A little reading between the lines here? I said that those not interested (and we are talking about this project - a standards group) don't have to join in so you must be thinking of something else here, because I didn't say that, so don't twist my words into something that was not said.

A steak is a steak is a steak, no matter how you wish to season it. But, if it is NOT steak, I will not call it that no matter how much they want to pay me. Is that not good enough? What?

If YOU want to say that ONLY those who are of a direct lineage to someone are legit, that is your business. Just don't think the rest of us buy into that.

No, the rest of YOU don't need to buy into it at all, never asked you to, never will, I have ALWAYS said that if it suits you fine, but I have a definition of Hapkido that sees Choi, Yong Sul as the Founder - thats really about it. As a result, those claiming rank in this art should have a connection here. (I believe that many have bought into this long before I said it...)

In fact, it is THAT type of hype which devides this community more than anything else. That is your opinion, frankly, lately we have been coming to quite a concensus about this. And fewere and fewer heated discussions. Why is it "hype" - truth is never hype. Lies have divided this community, false rank claims and claims about priviledge have done far more damage than saying Choi, Yong Sul was the founder of Hapkido.

FWIW, GM Seo at least did actually train with DJN Choi. Mighty few of us can make that claim, can you???? No, sure can't, but luckily I am priviledged enough to train with the one of the men ranked highest by Choi himself.

MY original post on this was very simple. It was suggested that seniors on this forum are not doing anything to support Hap Ki Do. My answer to that was "BULL". I, and a number of others, have been DOING something for Hap Ki Do for decades, and we are still DOING it rather than talking it. Perhaps in your eyes I am neither senior nor Hap Ki Do as it is defined to suit YOUR particular needs; but, there are those on this forum who have said otherwise.

I have not and never will say that - DO NOT INFER, OR IMPLY THAT YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK - I would never,EVER, on a public forum deride someone for the sake of derision. I have never questioned your ability, rank, standing, or value to the Hapkido community or this forum and to say otherwise is an insult.

If you are not interested in what I have to say to them, no need to get huffy and tell me to go build sandcastles... just ignore my post

No, here you have it a bit wrong. I agree that the comment about seniors by someone else was wrong (in my opinion) - and by rights you said that this is something you are not interested in because you tried it or something like it and it didn't work, but did you miss how hard the little community here is trying? I didn't. I also just said that if anyone was not interested, they can carry on doing their own thing (sorry if you didn't like the sandcastle analogy - it was pointed very generally at those not interested in this project).

IMHO, Hap Ki Do is not well served by people who are divisive. AGREED

Like Bruce has said a number of times. Let's look for what we have in common rather than shun those who flavour their steak with a different spice. If you are unwilling to recognize the efforts of GM Ji and other pioneers of our art, the result will be a mighty small group that will have NO influence on Hap Ki Do.

What does Ji have to do with my comments? When have I been unwilling to recognize his efforts? It is some of his CLAIMS I have issue with, and yes I think they have been the cause of much strife in the Hapkido community - but that has little or nothing to do with his "efforts". The only people I ever hope to "influence" are my own students and those who train with me.

If that is the case, why bother?

I was going to ignore your posts here, but the fact that you missed how well peolpe here have been interacting really struck me - I look at today when dealing with people, not yesterday, in the hope that things will always improve. Thats all that set me off, and I frankly wasn't looking to or trying to be annoying to anyone - you or anyone else - I say this all in the friendliest of tones, but please, never represent that I would infer a comment. I write without trying to do harm, but if I had something to say, and it could be said in proper context, I would say it. I only question what is available on the internet for all to see, not closed information.

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

What I'm hearing from Rudy and way he runs NKMAA is that he will accept a core minimum standard which is basically what I wanted to hear and I commend Rudy for his open mindedness and courage to rise above the establishment.

I'd like to discuss Rudy's first reactions to this thread because this is what I expected to hear from most for profit existing associations.

Rudy said quote .....Please tell me why people like JR West and myself should support a new organization that is in direct competition with USKMAF and NKMAA????........

I originally said this would be the reactions from the "establishment" because they have alot to lose namely;

1. Money (dues & testing fee, seminar revenue, etc)

2. Power (not being the leading authorities in thier perspective roles or one one who approves rank single handedly etc.)

3. Prestige (the top dog, the grandmaster, etc)

I'm not saying any particular person is a greedy & power hunrgy, but I am strongly suggesting that business is business and they have a turf to protect a market share if you will.

All this comes to prove what's suggested here is a threat to the "establishment" i.e. for profit associations (Hapkido Businesses) and I would speculate 99% of them are the same not because there bad people but because it's business.

To me this shows our idea of a core minimum standard has validity and goes beyond the idea of business. In order to sell something you must have an angle, you must show how your product is better or different from the other guys. Some like Rudy (chocolate) some like JR (vanilla), so they both co-exist.

Our idea is all flavors therefore is for all equally. "All for one and one for all"

 

[glad2bhere]

OK, as long as you folks are sorting out your differences I was wondering if I could run something by Rudy here real quick.

On my website I have been organizing the Minimal Standards Project. If you get a chance I wish you would take a look. Specifically I would be interested in your feedback on the following.

1.) Apart from what listed are there any other basic skills that you would feel good knowing that a person coming to one of your events has?

2.) Are there either English and/or Korean terms that you feel it would help a participant to know and understand?

3.) Are there technical terms you would recommend for the various techniques, concepts and drills posted on the site?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Greetings,

What I'm hearing from Rudy and way he runs NKMAA is that he will accept a core minimum standard which is basically what I wanted to hear and I commend Rudy for his open mindedness and courage to rise above the establishment.

I'd like to discuss Rudy's first reactions to this thread because this is what I expected to hear from most for profit existing associations.

Rudy said quote .....Please tell me why people like JR West and myself should support a new organization that is in direct competition with USKMAF and NKMAA????........

I originally said this would be the reactions from the "establishment" because they have alot to lose namely;

1. Money (dues & testing fee, seminar revenue, etc)

2. Power (not being the leading authorities in thier perspective roles or one one who approves rank single handedly etc.)

3. Prestige (the top dog, the grandmaster, etc)

I'm not saying any particular person is a greedy & power hunrgy, but I am strongly suggesting that business is business and they have a turf to protect a market share if you will.

All this comes to prove what's suggested here is a threat to the "establishment" i.e. for profit associations (Hapkido Businesses) and I would speculate 99% of them are the same not because there bad people but because it's business.

To me this shows our idea of a core minimum standard has validity and goes beyond the idea of business. In order to sell something you must have an angle, you must show how your product is better or different from the other guys. Some like Rudy (chocolate) some like JR (vanilla), so they both co-exist.

Our idea is all flavors therefore is for all equally. "All for one and one for all"

Hello Stuart:
#1. My reaction was to the comment that Seniors were not doing anything (or something like that).

#2. I run a non profit org. So this is not about money for me.

#3. The competition I speak of is about the same ideas and the time spent promoting these ideas, not because one charges money and the other does not. IMHO, not charging anything is too idealistic, because you WILL incur expenses down the road.

#4. Power means zip to me.

Your idea is noble, and perhaps long overdue. My comments were that it has been tried before. Perhaps you will have more luck than I did, because much more water has gone under the bridge since I looked at this back in 1973 when I organized NKMAA along the same lines. It was bad then, and it has gotten worse since. Maybe folks are now ready???

Mind you. I make no excuses for the fact that I depend on martial arts to earn a living, and I dare say that I earn every cent I make on it by giving fair value and good service. This does NOT mean that I sell the store so to speak, and that seems to be what is thought of as soon as money is mentioned. Not all of us are greedy, and not all of us rip people off. I simply provide an alternative for folks who have been burned by some of the Korean martial art organizations (from all sides of the oceans).

Some think Koreans are the only ones who rip people off. I beg to differer, as it has been my experience that many folks are being ripped off by the middle man (their own Instructor who fails to pass the money to the org... often without the org. knowing about it in the first place).

I guess this leaves me to answer why I am lukewarm about supporting yet another organization. To do so WILL take a lot of my time (of which I have little to spare at my age), and NOT giving my time only means I am not doing the job for you and the rest of the Hap Ki Do community. So, the competition I talk about boils down to time spent on my own org or the new one you wish to make. I hope I make myself a bit clearer now.

 

[kwanjang]

OK, as long as you folks are sorting out your differences I was wondering if I could run something by Rudy here real quick.

On my website I have been organizing the Minimal Standards Project. If you get a chance I wish you would take a look. Specifically I would be interested in your feedback on the following.

1.) Apart from what listed are there any other basic skills that you would feel good knowing that a person coming to one of your events has?

2.) Are there either English and/or Korean terms that you feel it would help a participant to know and understand?

3.) Are there technical terms you would recommend for the various techniques, concepts and drills posted on the site?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce:
Would have been good for folks to get your web url. Perhaps posting it would be a good idea, so others can also look it over. Maybe sending you my "test sheet" will help you. I have such sheets with MY minimum standards (and I emphasize MY, because I certify other folks who'se standards are perhaps not the same but still within the boundaries of being acceptable to most Hap Ki Do folks).

Our KSB curriculum is laid out all the way to 8th dahn, and I had the good fortune to assist my GM in completing it before he passed away. I am quite willing to send you the 1-3rd dahn sheets. The higher rank sheets are something I'd rather keep to myself for the time being, as I am looking at making some changes to them.

In our system, we have only ONE ninth dahn, because it is based on the tradition of #3 being important in Korean culture, and 3x3 is the highest form of that importance.

All of this may be a moot point, as all of you need to address one important thing first. What is acceptable to be called Hap Ki Do???? No sense even looking at something like my curriculum if I do not teach Hap Ki Do neh.

 

[kwanjang]

I was going to ignore your posts here, but the fact that you missed how well peolpe here have been interacting really struck me - I look at today when dealing with people, not yesterday, in the hope that things will always improve. Thats all that set me off, and I frankly wasn't looking to or trying to be annoying to anyone - you or anyone else - I say this all in the friendliest of tones, but please, never represent that I would infer a comment. I write without trying to do harm, but if I had something to say, and it could be said in proper context, I would say it. I only question what is available on the internet for all to see, not closed information.

Hello Kevin:
Perhaps I am reading different things into these posts, as without the benefit of immediate feedback and interaction, it is easy to conclude the wrong things. One of the drawbacks of a forum.

I did however go back to read some of the posts folks sent on this thread and some of the others that touched on this same idea, and I stand by my original assumption because that is the only way I can read these post. I am not the only one who thinks you and some of the others are looking at exclusions, and some other people have mentioned it even before I did.

Seems to me that you have on a number of occasions said that, unless the root was from GM Choi, it was not Hap Ki Do. We differ on that opinion; and, if your view on this is what will be accepted in this new organization, we will further divide this community. Am I reading you wrong here??? If so, I apologize.

I guess the fundamental difference we have is this. I believe that Hap Ki Do can be regognized by its motion, regardless of what certification is or was issued. Something like if it walks like a duck and squacks like a duck... it must be a duck. The way I read you is that one MUST have lineage to GM Choi before you could accept him or her as being a Hap KI Do practitioner. Maybe I read this wrong, and I would be delighted it I were wrong. With Hap Ki Do history and lineages in such a turmoil, it would be near impossible to document claims. Heck, even GM Choi's own claims are undocumented to a large degree as I understand it.

Don't get me wrong, I do not accept things as Hap Ki Do unless I can SEE that it is, and I for one HAVE declined (at considerable expense) some folks membership into NKMAA acting on my gut feeling on this. Problem is that the next Hap Ki Do Master did not seem to have a problem with taking them in. So, in the end it did not stop anyone, and due to human nature it will NEVER stop. I accept that, and I continue to do my small part in trying to keep Hap Ki Do as good as I can. Naivity has left me a long time ago, but my sense of honor is still with me. I am not the best man, but I try my best always.

 

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart:
#1. My reaction was to the comment that Seniors were not doing anything (or something like that).

#2. I run a non profit org. So this is not about money for me.

#3. The competition I speak of is about the same ideas and the time spent promoting these ideas, not because one charges money and the other does not. IMHO, not charging anything is too idealistic, because you WILL incur expenses down the road.

#4. Power means zip to me.

Your idea is noble, and perhaps long overdue. My comments were that it has been tried before. Perhaps you will have more luck than I did, because much more water has gone under the bridge since I looked at this back in 1973 when I organized NKMAA along the same lines. It was bad then, and it has gotten worse since. Maybe folks are now ready???

Mind you. I make no excuses for the fact that I depend on martial arts to earn a living, and I dare say that I earn every cent I make on it by giving fair value and good service. This does NOT mean that I sell the store so to speak, and that seems to be what is thought of as soon as money is mentioned. Not all of us are greedy, and not all of us rip people off. I simply provide an alternative for folks who have been burned by some of the Korean martial art organizations (from all sides of the oceans).

Some think Koreans are the only ones who rip people off. I beg to differer, as it has been my experience that many folks are being ripped off by the middle man (their own Instructor who fails to pass the money to the org... often without the org. knowing about it in the first place).

I guess this leaves me to answer why I am lukewarm about supporting yet another organization. To do so WILL take a lot of my time (of which I have little to spare at my age), and NOT giving my time only means I am not doing the job for you and the rest of the Hap Ki Do community. So, the competition I talk about boils down to time spent on my own org or the new one you wish to make. I hope I make myself a bit clearer now.

Dear Rudy,

I wasn't singling you out or JR I was just trying to make points that are true in many cases.

I don't think there's any thing wrong with making a living from teaching I paid my own way over the years and I charge my students for lessons.

I guess the last couple of years there have been some real low lifes and bad Association politics causing real problems for many good people. I would hate to see people go through some these things again forever and ever just with
different names causing the problems.

I really dont want to run any Association myself, but I feel a strong group effort can make a big difference and show the world we cant be taken advantage of anymore.

If seniors like yourself won't back it and help I won't go it alone and
I completely understand why you and other seniors I spoke to have reservations.

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Stuart:
I commend you for trying, and I will do whatever I can to help you if this is an organization that is not exclusive to a select few. I will send Bruce some of the info he might like to see, and we go from there. I am not into politics in my own org, and I want to stay away from any org that conflicts with my belief of no politics. I hope you understand.

 

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart:
I commend you for trying, and I will do whatever I can to help you if this is an organization that is not exclusive to a select few. I will send Bruce some of the info he might like to see, and we go from there. I am not into politics in my own org, and I want to stay away from any org that conflicts with my belief of no politics. I hope you understand.

Dear Rudy,

Thank you, my idea is for everyone even Kevin and Jung Ki Kwan Ha,Ha,!

As I said before I don't want to run anything and I mean it!

I just want to work on a core standard curriculum everyone can agree on.
I know some might say I want this tech and another guy says I want that but that's why I say a Core Minimum because each school can teach anything above the minimum.

So I thinking everyone should think in terms of (what's the bare minimum one should know to be considered a Hapkido 1st Dan)

No politics!

Also can you send me the info as well?