Unwanted Rank advancement...

wab25

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So, I have the opposite problem from most folks. I am hoping the folks here can help me out with this.


I have been studying Danzan Ryu for almost 20 years now, and spent the last 10 as Shodan. The organization I belong to, has a board that runs the organization and also administers all Dan rank exams. When I tested for Shodan, there was one of these board members as the chief examiner, along with 2 other high ranking Dans assisting in the exam. I appreciate and value the fact, that in our organization, certain standards are maintained, through have all Dan rank exams, include one of the board members. Due to my current location, and being caught in the middle of a bit of politics between two of the board members… I am unable to fulfill the requirements to test for Nidan. I want to say here, that I am ok with this. I am not bucking for rank… in fact I am going for the opposite.


Since moving to Florida, where there is only the one Danzan Ryu school (that I teach at), I have taken up studying Shotokan Karate, started at white belt. The two instructors are very good instructors. However, in the Karate organizations they are involved with, promotion happens the way I assume most other arts use. Once you are above a certain Dan rank, you can promote up to 2 ranks below… (not quite sure about the exact ranks required). The one is 7th Dan and the other 4th. In class, they refer to me as “sensei,” even though I am wearing white (purple now) belt. When visitors, either prospective students or instructors from other schools or systems show up, they explain that the reason they call me “sensei” is that I am the Sensei of the Danzan Ryu Jujitsu school. Recently, they have been introducing me as “Nidan” in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. When I have corrected them, as I am “Shodan,” they reply that I should be Nidan, and that they have therefore promoted me. The trick is that they are doing this to be respectful to me. I do not want to disrespect them, nor do I want word out that there is a Danzan Ryu Nidan here that the Danzan Ryu community does not know about. The dojo we are at, has many Japanese arts that are connected enough that many of the top instructors for these arts, frequently visit and teach at our dojo. Many of these guys are in close contact with some of those board members from my organization. I would really not like to get myself any more involved in the politics above my grade, by them finding out that I am now a surprise “Danzan Ryu Nidan,” without going through their process.


I know this seems backwards, high ranking Dans trying to award me my next Dan rank… and me not wanting it. But, I need to find the least sticky way to resolve this, hopefully without offending anyone.
 

Martial D

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I'm confused. How can your new school of a different art promote you in rank from your old school? That doesn't make sense to me.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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If they aren't ranked above Nidan in Danzan Ryu, tell them that them calling you that is fraud. Because it is. They dont get to decide what rank you deserve in an art they dont practice.
 

skribs

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I'm confused. How can your new school of a different art promote you in rank from your old school? That doesn't make sense to me.

This. Exactly this. They are not in your organization. They do not (based on this story) study your art. I don't see that they have the qualifications or credentials to give you a promotion. To be perfectly honest, they are being disrespectful to you and organization by assuming control over it.

I would explain to them that promotions must come from within the organization to which you are affiliated, and that rumors that you are a higher rank than you actually are can actually hurt your credibility. That while they are trying to build you up, what they're really doing is jeopardizing your reputation and putting you at risk of fraud.
 

Gerry Seymour

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There are situations where I’d consider a group of high-ranking instructors from other arts/styles (plural) an appropriate source of promotion. Those situations are few and unlikely to occur, and this is not one of them. So, I agree with your resistance to the “promotion “.

Their use of “Sensei” is off, for the situation. They appear overly rank-conscious, and expect you to be the same. The approach @skribs suggests is a good one. If they persist, at the very least you should probably reach out to the appropriate folks in your association to let them know what the situation really is, and that you do not claim or accept this rank from these two.
 

skribs

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There are situations where I’d consider a group of high-ranking instructors from other arts/styles (plural) an appropriate source of promotion. Those situations are few and unlikely to occur, and this is not one of them. So, I agree with your resistance to the “promotion “.

Their use of “Sensei” is off, for the situation. They appear overly rank-conscious, and expect you to be the same. The approach @skribs suggests is a good one. If they persist, at the very least you should probably reach out to the appropriate folks in your association to let them know what the situation really is, and that you do not claim or accept this rank from these two.

That does bring about an interesting, albeit slightly off-topic question. How do you refer to someone from a different organization, or from a different art?

For example, let's say 10 years down the line, I'm a Master in KKW Taekwondo, and I go to an ITF Taekwondo school. What rank and title should I expect there? If I go to a Karate school instead, or Judo school, or take another art, where I start over as white belt, I assume it would inappropriate to be referred to as Master in that school?

(At this point it's merely curiosity as I'm perfectly happy where I'm at).
 

Headhunter

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This is why I don't like certain aspects of belt systems it creates nonsense like this, one of the reasons I like boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai so much is there's none of that no one cares about belts everyone's just there for training
 

Gerry Seymour

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That does bring about an interesting, albeit slightly off-topic question. How do you refer to someone from a different organization, or from a different art?

For example, let's say 10 years down the line, I'm a Master in KKW Taekwondo, and I go to an ITF Taekwondo school. What rank and title should I expect there? If I go to a Karate school instead, or Judo school, or take another art, where I start over as white belt, I assume it would inappropriate to be referred to as Master in that school?

(At this point it's merely curiosity as I'm perfectly happy where I'm at).
To me, it is situational. If I go in as a student, I expect no recognition of my rank, except that the instructor might mention it to explain if I either do really well or make odd mistakes. I would finding it inappropriate for my Kali instructor to call me “Sensei” when teaching me.

If I am there as a guest instructor, I expect some recognition of my rank - either from my tradition or from theirs (at a Kali school, I’m okay if they choose to use the term “guru”, for instance). If the etiquette of that school is to call instructors by first name, I’m okay with that, too.
 

Gerry Seymour

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This is why I don't like certain aspects of belt systems it creates nonsense like this, one of the reasons I like boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai so much is there's none of that no one cares about belts everyone's just there for training
Usually, rank systems are pretty unobtrusive. The worry over rank is just a way to express power struggles and insecurities that show up in any organization.
 

WaterGal

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That does bring about an interesting, albeit slightly off-topic question. How do you refer to someone from a different organization, or from a different art?

For example, let's say 10 years down the line, I'm a Master in KKW Taekwondo, and I go to an ITF Taekwondo school. What rank and title should I expect there? If I go to a Karate school instead, or Judo school, or take another art, where I start over as white belt, I assume it would inappropriate to be referred to as Master in that school?

(At this point it's merely curiosity as I'm perfectly happy where I'm at).

While I don't want to overgeneralize, I think KKW & ITF tend to recognize each other as fellow Taekwondoin and the school would probably honor your belt (even if the process of getting the rank formally transferred by the organizing bodies would be a hassle). That being said, related to the OP's original question - if the ITF school said "you're only a 4th dan, really you should be a 5th dan by now" and started referring to you as a KKW 5th dan, that would be inappropriate - they might be able to transfer your rank and get you an ITF 5th dan rank, but they'd have no authority to grant you a KKW promotion. As for Judo, etc, you should go in as a white belt and just be a student. If they call you "Master So-and-so" during the class, you'll probably get a lot of funny looks.
 

Mitlov

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That does bring about an interesting, albeit slightly off-topic question. How do you refer to someone from a different organization, or from a different art?

For example, let's say 10 years down the line, I'm a Master in KKW Taekwondo, and I go to an ITF Taekwondo school. What rank and title should I expect there? If I go to a Karate school instead, or Judo school, or take another art, where I start over as white belt, I assume it would inappropriate to be referred to as Master in that school?

(At this point it's merely curiosity as I'm perfectly happy where I'm at).

I like the approach of calling another student or participant [first name] in casual conversation and Mr. / Ms. [last name] in more formal contexts, whether they're the best or worst student at the school. My school also does this with instructors in our organization, up to Mr. (Chuck) Norris himself. I like it.
 

drop bear

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But they are not actually formally promoting you?

Just smack talk.

Which I get a bit of by the way.
 

hoshin1600

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Have business cards made up clearly stating your rank and title.
 

_Simon_

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Ah okay, yeah I get the feeling that the OP means they are just trying to say that he's a Nidan, not actually promote, but just calling him a Nidan because they believe he should be.
 

KenpoMaster805

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you been studying for 20 years and you been a shodan for 10 bro you should be atleast a 4 or 5th degree by then i have a sifu whose 5th and his been studying for 20 years the qoestion is why dont you wana get promoted
 

Headhunter

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you been studying for 20 years and you been a shodan for 10 bro you should be atleast a 4 or 5th degree by then i have a sifu whose 5th and his been studying for 20 years the qoestion is why dont you wana get promoted
Some people just don't care about all that I mean let's be honest it doesn't mean much at the end of the day
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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you been studying for 20 years and you been a shodan for 10 bro you should be atleast a 4 or 5th degree by then i have a sifu whose 5th and his been studying for 20 years the qoestion is why dont you wana get promoted
There's no set timeline for those things. I can think of some people who trained for 20 years before reaching shodan in kempo. A result of amount of time training, and how much they care about being promoted.
 

pdg

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Some people just don't care about all that I mean let's be honest it doesn't mean much at the end of the day

That's true...

But it depends what you want.

I see my progression as a set of personal goals and achievements.

If you want to teach then a fair few styles demand a certain rank before you can run a class/school.

So yeah, it means nothing. Or it means everything. Or somewhere between the extremes...
 

Headhunter

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That's true...

But it depends what you want.

I see my progression as a set of personal goals and achievements.

If you want to teach then a fair few styles demand a certain rank before you can run a class/school.

So yeah, it means nothing. Or it means everything. Or somewhere between the extremes...
I never bought into that having to be a certain rank to teach. If you have to be third Dan to teach but I open a school as a first Dan who's going to stop me what can they do about it except be cross about it.theres no legal way they can stop me. If people choose to train with me as a first Dan and I have all the legit stuff to teach insurance first aid etc there's nothing anyone can do to stop me. Heck I've seen brown belts running schools.
 

Headhunter

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There's no set timeline for those things. I can think of some people who trained for 20 years before reaching shodan in kempo. A result of amount of time training, and how much they care about being promoted.
Yeah I was a brown belt for about 20 years simply because I didn't care about testing and I'd still be a brown belt today but my instructor at the time did a in class test for me without me knowing what it was and then promoted me. If he'd asked me to turn up on specific date to test I'd have said no the only reason I ever wanted new belts was so I could learn new material
 

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