Self Traning and Ranking Group

[American HKD]

Stuart, Thanks for your reply. I understand were your coming from and I am in agreement with you on the issues you presented.

As you stated, The challanges are getting a few well respected seniors to endorse it and agree on a curriculum. That's it.

This idea has been labored not only by yourself but by yours truely for the past year. We have been on several forums professing the same agenda. All have met with less than accepting response. We are caught in a catch 22 of sorts. For a new organization to have any chance for acceptance / validity, a person(s) of sufficient rank is needed. I don't think any will be coming forward to offer participation. They have had sufficient time already to answer the bell. I don't have the answer, I wish I did. People like you who honestly give of yourself to train and respect your art deserve something better than what's available now. It's a nasty circle of rank dosen't mean anything until something needs to be addressed and then rank becomes paramount. Danmed if you do and damned if you don't.

Anyway, you have my support, for what it's worth. If I can help in any way, just let me know.

Respectfully
Mike

Mike,

Thank You I appreciate your insights and assesment of the sad state of affairs in our Hapkido community.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

"........The only problem is people egos, They wont be able to make money from it, they won't be able to be the boss. They only actually have to train, learn, grow, and test for rank.

I guess it just too simple!......"

No. I don't think this is TOO SIMPLE at all. Furthermore I don't think people are having as hard a time understanding what is going on in the last few strings as they pretend.

My sense is that people in a position of influence, once they see that there is nothing significant for them to gain, find some reaason to dismiss it. If what was being advocated was a new organization in dire need of a leader, we would probably have a half dozen people touting their resumes and offering reasons why they or their art should be in a position of power and influence.

After my last post to Mike ("Disco") I took some time to go over the last four strings that have been worked on in the last two weeks here on MT. What I saw was a LOT of repeating the same questions over and over again as though each time a person posted they were reading the string for the first time, or only just the previous post. I read the same suspicious inquiries about "who is going to be in charge" and "what will it cost".

People are shying away from this because it entails that they will actually have to DO something and as such will have made a commitment to others as equals. In a previous string I asked some very concrete questions about a minimal standard (to wit: what about the roundhouse kick; what about the crescent kicks). Nothing! If I had asked about why everyone should be abandoning their arts to train under Dojunim Kim because his art is the most authentic, I would have had half a dozen posters venting their opinions.

And while I am at it let me say a little something about the folks who figure this is all "just talk" and the REAL HAPKIDO is out on the mat training. What is happening on these strings IS Hapkido. We are learning to work with our partners here just like we learn to work with our partners on the mat. To me all that bluster about "real hapkido" being on the mat just means that the person blowing that stuff around has become very good at taking care of himself and his needs. Feeling inadequate about being able to communicate in a group of equals they abandon the group unless they can speak from a position of superiority.

I am afraid we have a long way to go before folks are ready for an "adult relationship." Until then I think the social dynamics here will be closer to a high school locker room. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

"........The only problem is people egos, They wont be able to make money from it, they won't be able to be the boss. They only actually have to train, learn, grow, and test for rank.

I guess it just too simple!......"

No. I don't think this is TOO SIMPLE at all. Furthermore I don't think people are having as hard a time understanding what is going on in the last few strings as they pretend.

My sense is that people in a position of influence, once they see that there is nothing significant for them to gain, find some reaason to dismiss it. If what was being advocated was a new organization in dire need of a leader, we would probably have a half dozen people touting their resumes and offering reasons why they or their art should be in a position of power and influence.

After my last post to Mike ("Disco") I took some time to go over the last four strings that have been worked on in the last two weeks here on MT. What I saw was a LOT of repeating the same questions over and over again as though each time a person posted they were reading the string for the first time, or only just the previous post. I read the same suspicious inquiries about "who is going to be in charge" and "what will it cost".

People are shying away from this because it entails that they will actually have to DO something and as such will have made a commitment to others as equals. In a previous string I asked some very concrete questions about a minimal standard (to wit: what about the roundhouse kick; what about the crescent kicks). Nothing! If I had asked about why everyone should be abandoning their arts to train under Dojunim Kim because his art is the most authentic, I would have had half a dozen posters venting their opinions.

And while I am at it let me say a little something about the folks who figure this is all "just talk" and the REAL HAPKIDO is out on the mat training. What is happening on these strings IS Hapkido. We are learning to work with our partners here just like we learn to work with our partners on the mat. To me all that bluster about "real hapkido" being on the mat just means that the person blowing that stuff around has become very good at taking care of himself and his needs. Feeling inadequate about being able to communicate in a group of equals they abandon the group unless they can speak from a position of superiority.

I am afraid we have a long way to go before folks are ready for an "adult relationship." Until then I think the social dynamics here will be closer to a high school locker room. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce

I agree with your assements here that's why were not hearing from seniors right now.

IMO they have everything to gain here Real Honor, Real Respect, Real Commitment to HKD, not Political Positions and Association Status.

 

[jkn75]

I'm sure you don't butt into a group of seniors and start getting to thier converstaion uninvited? Respect, Maners, Knowing when and where to speak is part of HKD training too.

Very true. I don't butt in to a private conversation, for example I wouldn't barge into an office and interrupt a conversation unless there was an emergency.

However, I will listen to the conversation if it's occuring around me. I will also participate in a polite manner, especially if something comes up that is within my area of expertise. For example, if I was a physics professor and masters were talking about physics, I would let them know my background and offer my help. I have had masters specifically ask me questions because they knew my area of expertise outside of the martial arts realm.

Organizations do not exist in a vacuum, and even though you want no politics there will still need to be rules:
How will those rules be enforced? What if a school claims certification in your organization but does not actually have it? Are you legally protected? A fifth dan or above can answer these question but so can an attorney. Who would you rather have answer some of those questions? Don't discount people because they don't hold rank. They may have skills and expertise outside martial arts that they may be willing to offer at a discount because of the common interest in the martial arts (ask any school or club owner who is lucky enough to have a graphic designer for a student).

I think your first thread should have ended in

WHO'S EVER ON BOARD WITH THIS IDEA CONTACT ME DIRECTLY TO BEGIN PLANNING.

This would have allowed further discussion by people who you do not want commenting and allowed you to continue a private conversation with those you seek. I believe you are on the training floor, not in the office, so I see no reason why there shouldn't be open comment and discussion. If you wanted a private conversation, a public forum is not the place to do it.

 

[iron_ox]

Very true. I don't butt in to a private conversation, for example I wouldn't barge into an office and interrupt a conversation unless there was an emergency.

However, I will listen to the conversation if it's occuring around me. I will also participate in a polite manner, especially if something comes up that is within my area of expertise. For example, if I was a physics professor and masters were talking about physics, I would let them know my background and offer my help. I have had masters specifically ask me questions because they knew my area of expertise outside of the martial arts realm.

Organizations do not exist in a vacuum, and even though you want no politics there will still need to be rules:
How will those rules be enforced? What if a school claims certification in your organization but does not actually have it? Are you legally protected? A fifth dan or above can answer these question but so can an attorney. Who would you rather have answer some of those questions? Don't discount people because they don't hold rank. They may have skills and expertise outside martial arts that they may be willing to offer at a discount because of the common interest in the martial arts (ask any school or club owner who is lucky enough to have a graphic designer for a student).

I think your first thread should have ended in This would have allowed further discussion by people who you do not want commenting and allowed you to continue a private conversation with those you seek. I believe you are on the training floor, not in the office, so I see no reason why there shouldn't be open comment and discussion. If you wanted a private conversation, a public forum is not the place to do it.

If you have something to add, then just add it. Your post is like a kid that gets into grown folks conversation, then complains they don't let him talk...and is by speaking IN the conversation. Now, I am not saying your a kid, but hey if you have a constructive idea, let fly - we all listen pretty good - but to question the why's and how's of something still in a construt stage is putting the bull before the horns here.

 

[American HKD]

Very true. I don't butt in to a private conversation, for example I wouldn't barge into an office and interrupt a conversation unless there was an emergency.

However, I will listen to the conversation if it's occuring around me. I will also participate in a polite manner, especially if something comes up that is within my area of expertise. For example, if I was a physics professor and masters were talking about physics, I would let them know my background and offer my help. I have had masters specifically ask me questions because they knew my area of expertise outside of the martial arts realm.

Organizations do not exist in a vacuum, and even though you want no politics there will still need to be rules:
How will those rules be enforced? What if a school claims certification in your organization but does not actually have it? Are you legally protected? A fifth dan or above can answer these question but so can an attorney. Who would you rather have answer some of those questions? Don't discount people because they don't hold rank. They may have skills and expertise outside martial arts that they may be willing to offer at a discount because of the common interest in the martial arts (ask any school or club owner who is lucky enough to have a graphic designer for a student).

I think your first thread should have ended in This would have allowed further discussion by people who you do not want commenting and allowed you to continue a private conversation with those you seek. I believe you are on the training floor, not in the office, so I see no reason why there shouldn't be open comment and discussion. If you wanted a private conversation, a public forum is not the place to do it.

Dear Ink75,

So what you telling us here is that your an expert in all the problems with HKD organizations and your a Hapkido Instructor who has had the necessary background and expirience to offer opinions equal senior masters and instructors who have spent years dealing with such issues.

If that's the case please accept my apology and let me know your background so you can help form this group if it interests you.

Moreover you must realize only senior masters and instructors can make this happen not lower dan or gup ranks I'm sorry.

 

[jkn75]

Iron_Ox,

No, I'm not "in" the conversation. It was expressly stated, if you are not a high ranking person in hapkido, don't reply. I also felt my etiquette was called into question and I think that's a bit unfair.

When should/would we question an organization? Why not in the formative stages? If the goal is to provide a different, quality organization free from the problems of other organizations, why not ask some questions in the formative stages. Why not get input from lower level black belts?

American HKD:

No, I'm not an expert in Hapkido, or hapkido problems but my background is in law. If you are in the planning stages of an organization, there may be areas specifically related to law that may be important and my background is more valuable than my rank and organization. I also own a KMA school. I may not be a fifth degree but I have concerns in that capacity. If I wanted to join your organization, I would want my concerns addressed.

With that said, my concerns for any organization are these: lower level black belts will be the bulk of your organization eventually. These are the people who will be testing in front of masters and seeking higher ranks to become future masters. Other organizations already ignore us, why would we need another one? We are told as part of etiquette to sit back and let the masters handle it. Yet, masters have handled things so well, lower ranks are unhappy with their organizations, are untrained and are left to fend for themselves. How will your organization enforce the high goals you have set?

What will be the requirements to open a school? Will there be instructor/ school owner seminars? What about business plans/ models? Will a similar three master panel be called in case of school owner disputes? What are the minimum distances between schools? Who gets to vote for the three person panel? A Fifth Dan and a First Dan obviously have differences in years in training but should a Fifth dan get 5 votes while a first dan gets one? It may be too early for these question and these things may not be hashed out yet which is understandable. If so, just say "no, we haven't thought about these things yet, they will be addressed."

Obviously, the state of Hapkido has made you so unhappy that the only reprieve you can find is in creating your own organization. Kudos to you because that is a big step.

 

[Paul B]

When should/would we question an organization? Why not in the formative stages? If the goal is to provide a different, quality organization free from the problems of other organizations, why not ask some questions in the formative stages. Why not get input from lower level black belts?

Good call. No....us lower ranks can't "make" it happen,but we can certainly help if needed.

lower level black belts will be the bulk of your organization eventually. These are the people who will be testing in front of masters and seeking higher ranks to become future masters.

Eventually....but right now we need to offer to "get in at that base floor",so to speak. I have nothing to offer except my love of Hapkido and a strong work ethic,but I think that counts for something,no?


That's all I have,sorry to interject...but I had to say something.

 

[Andrew Green]

Howard,

1. Who said anything about a POLITICAL ORGANIZATION?

It is an organization, therefore politics will come into play whether you like it or not, same as in every other organization.

2. This is what people wanted and spoke about a united Hapkido.

How often do people really know what they want? AND what they want is possible. Idealism is nice, but not the way things really work. As soon as you form another organization which is basically the same in structure, but a few things whifted around you will have all the same problems as before. This is what has happened with hundred of other martial arts organizations and this wouldn't be any different

My outline is to do just that with minimum requirements, no dues, no bosses, no giving up old ties to any other Associations, the only requirment is to test for rank!

Who sets them? who judges them?

Right there you already got leaders and power given to certain people, and politics will leave others fighting for it, and to control it. If an organization has any position of power within it there will be political games played.

Best solution - No organization, no positions of power, just people that like to train together.

The only problem is people egos, They wont be able to make money from it, they won't be able to be the boss. They only actually have to train, learn, grow, and test for rank.

I guess it just too simple!

No, you already gave positions of power out, those that can set standards and test others. Power is often as much a motivator for political problems as money is, cause really, there is rarely any money to be made in martial arts organizations.

Train, learn, grow, forget the rank.

You can't have rank and not have positions of power, that is the whole purpose of rank.

 

[American HKD]

Iron_Ox,

No, I'm not "in" the conversation. It was expressly stated, if you are not a high ranking person in hapkido, don't reply. I also felt my etiquette was called into question and I think that's a bit unfair.

When should/would we question an organization? Why not in the formative stages? If the goal is to provide a different, quality organization free from the problems of other organizations, why not ask some questions in the formative stages. Why not get input from lower level black belts?

American HKD:

No, I'm not an expert in Hapkido, or hapkido problems but my background is in law. If you are in the planning stages of an organization, there may be areas specifically related to law that may be important and my background is more valuable than my rank and organization. I also own a KMA school. I may not be a fifth degree but I have concerns in that capacity. If I wanted to join your organization, I would want my concerns addressed.

With that said, my concerns for any organization are these: lower level black belts will be the bulk of your organization eventually. These are the people who will be testing in front of masters and seeking higher ranks to become future masters. Other organizations already ignore us, why would we need another one? That's a good question so it's like this IMHO

1. If there are minimum standard designed to teach the essense of HKD, when one learns this they will be a Hapkido Black belt.
Many Orgs wont accept one from another because they don't recogize thier skills, I would like to minimize this from happening to future Hapkidoin.

2. Many Orgs also won't accept you for financial reasons ( profits ) I'm against paying dues so we can't be profit driven.

3. I don't want any supreme leader, just seniors with expirience guiding others.

4. I'm for Instructor's running thier schools as they see fit.

5. I'm for seminar's designed to teach Hapkido at all levels including Instructor training.

6. We would'nt require anyone to quit other affiliations or break ties with thier teachers.

We are told as part of etiquette to sit back and let the masters handle it. Yet, masters have handled things so well, lower ranks are unhappy with their organizations, are untrained and are left to fend for themselves. How will your organization enforce the high goals you have set?

1. Most people are unhappy after Dan rank or when they want to teach or they cant get a higher rank because of egos, money, power, competition etc. My outline removes as much of that as humanly possible by ranking done independly of the school. ( An unbias Testing board )

What will be the requirements to open a school? Anyone can open a school but to be an Affiliated Instructor I think one should be a 2nd dan and complete an Inst. training course.

Will there be instructor/ school owner seminars? No the are a few marketing people out there like NAPA who will be of more help.
What about business plans/ models? Will a similar three master panel be called in case of school owner disputes? Not for civil disputs.

What are the minimum distances between schools? I dont see that a problem letting the market bear itself out.

Who gets to vote for the three person panel? I think the panel does'nt have to be fixed for example any quaified Instructor at least one Dan higher can be on the testing panel, but it will be endorsed by the most senior members.

A Fifth Dan and a First Dan obviously have differences in years in training but should a Fifth dan get 5 votes while a first dan gets one? No It may be too early for these question and these things may not be hashed out yet which is understandable. If so, just say "no, we haven't thought about these things yet, they will be addressed."

Obviously, the state of Hapkido has made you so unhappy that the only reprieve you can find is in creating your own organization. Hapkido has become a free for all as is the name. Hapkido Traditionally is the Art of Choi Yong Sul and Ji Han Jae if you deviate from this path your are no longer practicing Hapkido but an off shoot of sorts.

I'm against favoritism, greed, rank for profit in my expirience the Koreans are no better than anyone else. There's no need to follow anyone who's not honorable.

Kudos to you because that is a big step.

.

 

[glad2bhere]

So it comes down to a very simple question, doesn't?

Would the people here willfully choose to help other people regardless of

affiliation without thought of gain, recognition or profit and without being

compelled or directed to do so by some external authority such as an

organization or a hierarchy?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Isn't that in part what we do here?

 

[glad2bhere]

Yes---- in part, Kevin.

However, what goes on in the back of my mind is always the concern that somehow I will be coerced or recruited into one persons' view of how things are to be done.

I remember when I first went to JR Wests' International some years back. I heard what it was represented as, but I had serious concerns that once I was there I would be pressured to do things a particular way, or be quietly pushed to join his organization to get full benefits of his event. It was a wonderful experience to be together with other folks who wanted only to train and communicate together.

What I see a strong need for is to continually press the idea that this is a program of "invitation" and the "invitation" is open-ended and unqualified. I have every reason to believe that long-standing Hapkido practitioners will find counterparts as time goes on. Relative novices will benefit by hanging around people who have been training longer. But let me say one more time that I think it is very important that folks who get involved with what we do not feel as though they are having a particular approached shoved down their throat. If what we do smacks of any kind of quality I'd bet people will be drawn to it simply for that reason alone. I think our passions and our dedication will speak FOR us. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

I think what is called for here is a combination of all the things that have been discussed - but rather than consider it an association - and all the baggage that goes with it, why not think of it and run it like a standards institute? Majot universities are not all of the same political or social background but may be accredited by the same organization based on a set of standards that have nothing to do with any affiliation.

So, for example, I think you should not shoot for minimum stnadartds, but just standards - such as (this is an example):

3 years training required before blackbelt - 2-3 times a week
x number of breakaways
x number of same side wrist releases
etc. - but looking for technical expertise
an understanding of Hapkido's three principles - maybe a written explanation here
if we are speaking Hapkido, a verifiable background in a Choi or Ji lineage

As the North American Hapkido Standards Institute there is no concern about politics or dropping your current affiliation - meet "these" standards for belt recognition. THis would look at TECHNICAL MERIT - not social merit, how well you teach, whatever. As a standards institute, there should be no concern about whether you run a commercial or private dojang, etc, and rank could then be simply verified through the institute.

This approach is non-political, and non-partisan - meet this criteria and thats it. Meet yearly, train and evaluate.

I think this is the way to go. In my opinion.

 

[American HKD]

Hello all,

I think what is called for here is a combination of all the things that have been discussed - but rather than consider it an association - and all the baggage that goes with it, why not think of it and run it like a standards institute? Majot universities are not all of the same political or social background but may be accredited by the same organization based on a set of standards that have nothing to do with any affiliation.

So, for example, I think you should not shoot for minimum stnadartds, but just standards - such as (this is an example):

3 years training required before blackbelt - 2-3 times a week
x number of breakaways
x number of same side wrist releases
etc. - but looking for technical expertise
an understanding of Hapkido's three principles - maybe a written explanation here
if we are speaking Hapkido, a verifiable background in a Choi or Ji lineage

As the North American Hapkido Standards Institute there is no concern about politics or dropping your current affiliation - meet "these" standards for belt recognition. THis would look at TECHNICAL MERIT - not social merit, how well you teach, whatever. As a standards institute, there should be no concern about whether you run a commercial or private dojang, etc, and rank could then be simply verified through the institute.

This approach is non-political, and non-partisan - meet this criteria and thats it. Meet yearly, train and evaluate.

I think this is the way to go. In my opinion.

Kevin


You and I are saying the same thing.

I have professional Engineering Certificates in my field of commercial and industrial Fire Alarm Design thought that type of Certifying Standards Agency.

There are strict guidelines, recommendation from engineers, annual dues, Exams, you must have certian times in the field just to sit for various degree levels no different from any Hapkido Association.

So my original idea is all of that call it any name but it's still the same thing.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Stuart,

Yep, I agree, nothing reall "new" about my post, but the idea of an "institute" is a-political and non-organizational enough I think for us all to agree on...

 

[Bob D.]

American HKD:
"The Confucian philosophy of the Martial Arts is not a democratic system of everyones vote counts and all have a voice. It's quite clear that many American students don't understand the teachings and conduct of Traditional MA culture. "

My group is/has been going through a similar process for about 15 years now.
One thing most of us agree on is we are culturally Americans and that the Cunfucian model does not work for us as Americans.
You state you wish to break away from the Korean run organizations yet you want to hold on to their outdated and un-American (culturally) Cunfucian idea.

It seems you all want to maintain the traditional Hapkido syllibus (if one could agree what that is), and you want to maintain "The Confucian philosophy of the Martial Arts" with it's focus on hierarchy.
It sort of seems contradictory (to your reasons for leaving the Koreans)and certianly a major roadblock to success.
I don't know what the answer is for you but thought I'd bring this up as we've gone through this and discussed it for years. Our goals sound different in regards to maintaining tradition so our answers would not necessarily apply.
I think it very important for you all to consider though.
Regards, Bob

 

[American HKD]

American HKD:
"The Confucian philosophy of the Martial Arts is not a democratic system of everyones vote counts and all have a voice. It's quite clear that many American students don't understand the teachings and conduct of Traditional MA culture. "

My group is/has been going through a similar process for about 15 years now.
One thing most of us agree on is we are culturally Americans and that the Cunfucian model does not work for us as Americans.
You state you wish to break away from the Korean run organizations yet you want to hold on to their outdated and un-American (culturally) Cunfucian idea.

It seems you all want to maintain the traditional Hapkido syllibus (if one could agree what that is), and you want to maintain "The Confucian philosophy of the Martial Arts" with it's focus on hierarchy.
It sort of seems contradictory (to your reasons for leaving the Koreans)and certianly a major roadblock to success.
I don't know what the answer is for you but thought I'd bring this up as we've gone through this and discussed it for years. Our goals sound different in regards to maintaining tradition so our answers would not necessarily apply.
I think it very important for you all to consider though.
Regards, Bob

Yes I see your point but for example; in america common respect for elders should be practiced I learned that from my parents. Knowing how and when to ask in a respectable manor is along those lines as well.

It really doesn't have to be "The Confucian philosophy" but that ties into MA and a system of teaching values that may be lacking in our culture.

But whatever you call common courtesy and good morals it should be the same in the end.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Bob:

I have a little different take on the subject, but not so very different from what you shared.

I admire the survivalist pragmatism of the Korean people which has often helped them through some very trying times. I often examine my own conduct, scrutinizing with a lens constructed of my best understanding of how folks from such a culture might consider what I do and how I do it. Admittedly there is a meaningful percentage of fantasy, romance and guesswork in these efforts. For me, however, a big portion of the credit is in making the effort. The reason I share this is that I think there needs to be a clear line drawn between wanting to "act" like a Korean, and wanting to emmulate qualities that one admires. In the final analysis for me, saying I train in Korean MA goes beyond "dress-up", using fractured English and executing exotic MA techniques. It comes from wanting to understand howe they came to make the choices that they made, and striving to find in my own life the sorts of results history records for them.

If I have been lucky enough to make myself understood relating very difficult thoughts, maybe this helps explain why, ultimately, I do not need an organization, or hierarchy and why I find them more of a hinderance or a help. I have rarely (ever?) heard someone say that they have found a deeper sense of Self by being a member of XYZ organization, nor have I had folks report that they are better people for having gotten a rank. What I HAVE heard is a person report in the quiet of a lockerroom that they almost quit the workout, but surprised themselves by staying with it. Such opportunities are what Hapkido people need, not more organizations nor do we need organizations to make such opportunities happen.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I have rarely (ever?) heard someone say that they have found a deeper sense of Self by being a member of XYZ organization, nor have I had folks report that they are better people for having gotten a rank. What I HAVE heard is a person report in the quiet of a lockerroom that they almost quit the workout, but surprised themselves by staying with it. Such opportunities are what Hapkido people need, not more organizations nor do we need organizations to make such opportunities happen.

I have learned a great deal from my present Association,
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association

An organization needs a competent Master or Grandmaster to be in charge! This will insure that the next generation will pass things on to the future the important key points to the future generations.

I would be willing to talk about minimum standerds as long as they are not just taken from ALL Hapkido associations! There are very few that are Hapkido! Off balencing, body positioning, skill are very important not just marketing & rank promotions!

Another Organization, Im not sure this will help due to the differing opinions of what Hapkido should be!

I am perfectly satisfied with my Association and there rank requirements.

www.millersmudo.com